--- Day changed Thu Jun 05 2008
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00:13 < ron> slurpd was push based?  that makes no sense, it should have been called slopd in that case
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00:24 < stockholm> what does the prefix "ssh-dss" mean in a public ssh key file?
00:24 < murb> it means you're using dss rather than rsa key.
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00:33 < astronut> dss ?= dsa?
00:33 < murb> yeah
00:33 < noshadow> astronut: standard vs algorithm
00:34 < astronut> thanks
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00:39 < liiwi> ah, there, configuration error, now nut works
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01:20 < Ganneff> 5750 root      25   0 54.0g  50g 1612 R 99.7 79.8 217:12.59 0 analyze.pl
01:20 < Ganneff> yay
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01:25 < Bombadil> Does anybody know why the popcon graphs don't get updated any more? The graphs apparently stop with last quarter of May...
01:26 < godog> openssl problem?
01:26 < godog> i.e. some removed ssh key?
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01:27 < Bombadil> hmm, possible - what a bummer...
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01:35 < madduck> pray that no openoffice developer crosses my path in the next few days
01:35 < madduck> i've just spent about an hour ensuring that the bullets on a poster i need to create are all the custom symbol i have to use
01:35 < madduck> and now i cannot edit the poster anymore, as the symbol will just revert to a bullet
01:36 < madduck> as soon as i edit a line
01:36 < madduck> the people responsible for this crap should be forced to use it under time pressure or in real-world scenarios
01:36 < madduck> probably the best torture for them
01:37  * ron hands madduck vim and ascii art skillz
01:37 < morph_> hi all! If I set urgency=high, should I mention it in hte changelog?
01:37  * luca suggest LaTeX
01:38 < luca> hi morph_! would be useful to mention why, yes
01:38 < morph_> luca: thanks, I'll had a note then
01:41 < seanius> madduck: edit the master slid mabye?
01:41  * seanius cant type apparently
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01:42 < madduck> ron: the stupid PR people at my research lab require a power point slide
01:43 < madduck> seanius: impress does not do styles
01:43 < seanius> sure it does, unless i'm misunderstanding
01:43  * bremner suggests lining PR people behind oo-devs when the revolution comes. Or before.
01:44 < madduck> seanius: come here and fix it for me then! ")
01:45  * seanius is busy watching a progress bar at $work for the last 15 minutes of the day
01:46 < seanius> got to try out vista for the first time today
01:46 < mrvn> condolences
01:46 < seanius> so far it seems like xp with a custom theme and compositing window manager
01:46 -!- ernesto [~Ernesto@200-71-150-172.static.telcel.net.ve] has joined #debian-devel
01:47 < seanius> plus added features such as application incompatibility and moar digital restrictions management
01:49 < algernon> So far, I found one major advantage of using Vista over XP: my brother thinks he can handle something called "Vista", "XP" sounds too techie to him, and thus, comes to me with XP problems. He leaves me alone with Vista.
01:49 < seanius>  yeah, and they really dumb shit down
01:50 < seanius> like "properties" is now "personalize"
01:50 < mrvn> Asta La Vista, baby.
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01:51 < seanius> oh, and afaict there's still no multiple workspace support
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01:51 < seanius> if it's there it's hiding pretty well, anyway
01:51 < seanius> probably because they don't want to have to support users who "loose all their windows" or something
01:52 < _ds_> ITYM "lose" :-)
01:52 < ron> madduck: I wonder if feynman would be amused to know its not real research until you can fit it into a pp presentation
01:53 < seanius> let loose the windows of war
01:54 < seanius> okay this progress bar is not finishing any time soon, i guess i better call it a day and pick up with things tomorrow
01:54  * seanius really feels like he's earning his pay today... :/
01:55 < mrvn> seanius: as the speed of the progress bar is proportional to the remaining space you should be good untill it is at the last pixels.
01:55 < morph_> what is the "standard" way to mention a CVE fix in the changelog?
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02:02 < MadCoder> morph_: you paste it unmodified, unsplit
02:02 < morph_> MadCoder: great, thanks
02:03 < madduck> BRING ME AN OPENOFFICE DEVELOPER ON A PLATTER AND A BIG GLOWING TORCH PLEASE!
02:03 < MadCoder> look at the firefox, xulrunner, ffmpeg, poppler changelogs
02:03 < MadCoder> you should be able to find examples easily
02:03 < MadCoder> now is the time to find the last review of OOo linked from lwn and give it to madduck 
02:04 < MadCoder> madduck: if you want to do a powerpoint use office XP
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02:04 < MadCoder> or the apple thingy which name eludes me
02:04 < madduck> MadCoder: watch it, I am in France. I am close. I might use the torch on you when I am done with the OOo guys.
02:04 < MadCoder> heh
02:04 < MadCoder> keynote that is
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02:07 < astronut> madduck: do what other people do, make your poster in latex, take a screenshot and give them a powerpoint slide with just the image of your latex generated content
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02:08 < madduck> then it can't be indexed with microsoft sharepoint
02:08 < madduck> which they use and are all hyper about
02:08 < madduck> it's fucking shit.
02:09 < astronut> put the content in text only form in the notes section?
02:09 < madduck> the sharepoint wiki is a major fuckup
02:09 < mjj29> seanius: multiple workspaces is a microsoft powertoy
02:09 < Ganneff> we knew that since you said microsoft
02:09 < mjj29> you can download it from their website
02:09 < MadCoder> Ganneff: you can spit all you want, but at least they have a working office suite
02:10 < Ganneff> HAHAHA
02:10 < Ganneff> working
02:10 < ron> madduck: isn't fixing that shit what your research is supposed to be about?
02:10 < mrvn> and reiserfs is a working filesystem :)
02:10 < mjj29> I have a working office suite
02:10 < mjj29> I use latex
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02:10 < mrvn> mjj29: That isn't an office suite. That is better.
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02:11 < MadCoder> Ganneff: well, I just can't use it because I'm not efficient with it. But I'm able to produce documents in a decent time
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02:11 < MadCoder> with OOo I just can't
02:11 < mjj29> mrvn: indeed
02:11 < astronut> madduck: what about koffice or whatever it is?
02:11 < madduck> ron: yeah, but i deal with DDs, not PR people. Not saying that's any easier... :)
02:12 < astronut> kpresenter
02:12 < madduck> astronut: i am on a france telecom ADSL link. downloading anything k* will take until next month
02:12 < murb> madduck: or turn you orange?
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02:12 < madduck> we get a whopping average of about 4kbps to ftp.fr.debian.org
02:13 < madduck> murb: orange?
02:13 < MadCoder> madduck: use ftp2.fr.d.o
02:13 < mrvn> Description: extracts CAB files from self-extracting installers
02:13 < madduck> MadCoder: same thing
02:13 < MadCoder> it's on oleane that is orange that is france telecom
02:13 < madduck> thought so
02:13 < madduck> the next thing i'll do is switch these people here over to free.fr or neuf.fr
02:13 < MadCoder> ftp.fr.d.o is free that is iliad that is teh ennemy
02:14 < MadCoder> (of ornage that is)
02:14 < MadCoder> peering between the two is at best horrible
02:14 < madduck> your logic makes no sense. might be the typing.
02:14 < astronut> rofl
02:14 < astronut> http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=573423&cid=23651781
02:14 < MadCoder> ftp.fr.debian.org is hosted on iliad servers, aka free.fr
02:15 < madduck> ok. so /me switches to frr
02:15 < madduck> free.fr
02:15 < madduck> it just takes weeks and i can't wait down here for them.
02:15 < MadCoder> madduck: except that peering between free and orange networks is horrible
02:15 < Manoj> Hmmm. I should set up an alioth project for the google SoC project I am a mentor for
02:15 < MadCoder> so if you're on an orange DSL line you should rather use ftp2
02:15 < madduck> Manoj: no hurry. it only started 10 days ago.
02:15 < madduck> MadCoder: equally slow. the ADSL line is *shit*
02:16 < Manoj> madduck: my student had other commitments until this week
02:16 < MadCoder> I feel your pain, we're on orange here, until free decides to build our line …
02:16 < MadCoder> and the net is sometimes .. err .. erratic
02:16 < madduck> Manoj: you could have used the previous weeks to set up the infrastructure. :)
02:16 < MadCoder> but I set up an internal debian miror so :)
02:16 < madduck> anyway, there's a reason the internet sucks here...
02:17 < madduck> because i am actually on vacation
02:17 < madduck> and now that this fuckign poster is out of the way...
02:17  * madduck waves good bye and starts on the pastis
02:17 < MadCoder> heh
02:17 < p2-mate> pastis !
02:17 < p2-mate> hmm
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02:18 < Manoj> madduck: how does that matter, really? does it take long to get an alioth project setup?
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02:18 < MadCoder> depends how much buxy is occupied trolling on update-notifier instead
02:18 < MadCoder> *cough*
02:19 < buxy> MadCoder: I was not trolling at all, and I care less about the precise update-* stuff than the fact that you don't care about tasks at all in your job
02:20 < MadCoder> \o/
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02:21 < Manoj> buxy: would there be an objection to a alioth project designed to track a SoC project? We would need a git repo and a mailing list, and perhaps a web page
02:22 < suihkulokki> Manoj: perhaps you could use the gsoc project at alioth?
02:23 < Manoj> suihkulokki: wouldn't that mean merging the source code for all project in the git repo, and having the mailing lists cluttered up with all kinds of techjnical discussions?
02:23 < pusling> afaik, you can add as many git repos as you like and create as many maillists as you like  in a alioth project
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02:25 < Manoj> Hmm, http://alioth.debian.org/projects/gsoc/ is invalid
02:25 < buxy> Manoj: no, although I don't understand why people want so many mailing lists for every smallish project
02:26 < buxy> Manoj: the project is "soc"
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02:26 < Manoj> buxy: I just want an archive of the discussion, so that we may go back to refer to technical details later
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02:27 < Manoj> suihkulokki: also, I think the soc project, and the mailing list, is about meta discussions, I think
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02:28 < suihkulokki> Manoj: like pusling said, you can have as many repos/mailing lists as you want in a alioth project
02:29 < micah> is pergolesi unavailable to DDs since the openssl problem?
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02:29 < micah> hrm, or my ssh key change didn't work
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02:30 < Maulkin> Manoj: Added to alioth
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02:32 < micah> when I mail to changes@db.debian I should expect some sort of reply, even if it fails, right?
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02:32 < ag-> yes
02:33 < micah> wonder why i didn't
02:33 < Manoj> Maulkin: thanks
02:34 < Manoj> buxy: I applied for the project mergecf 
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02:49 < stew> micah: worksforme
02:49 < micah> stew: yeah, just re-did it and I got a reply
02:50 < micah> i'll probably get the other one in a few days
02:50 < stew> micah: greylisted?
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02:50 < micah> no, but I think it probably was deferred due to an outage
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02:57 < Manoj> I still think that no program should dump things in ~/
02:57 < Manoj> if I want a config file, I'll add one
02:57 < Manoj> If I actually configure something, even if I use a gui, then it is OK to store that into ~/.
02:58 < Manoj> but just calling a program, not changfing anything, adds gobs of junk to ~/.  ought to be unacceptable
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03:01 < Manoj> I mean, if I haven't changed anything yet, then all settings are the default, so the program can just read them from a common "default" location, perhaps under /etc. Then as each setting gets changed, it gets stored in ~., and overwrites the values from /etc
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03:02 < Manoj> holy cow. there is an ucf project on alitoh
03:03 < Manoj> I don't recall creating it
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03:21 < AzaTht> mrvn: allo ballou
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05:28 < dam> if both arm and armel are little-endian, what is the difference between them?
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05:29 < p2-mate> old ABI vs EABI
05:29 < dam> p2-mate: is this hardware or gcc?
05:30 < p2-mate> all :)
05:30 < mrvn> dam: Just be lucky it isn't mips with its 12 abis.
05:30 < p2-mate> compiler : ABI changed
05:30 < p2-mate> kernel : syscall interface changed
05:30 < p2-mate> hardware : requires armv5t or later core
05:31 < p2-mate> so armv4 is not supported by EABI
05:31 < mrvn> armel has more registers and/or opcodes, right?
05:31 < p2-mate> because it lacks the bx instruction
05:31 < p2-mate> no
05:31 < p2-mate> armel supports thumb and thumb2 state
05:31 < p2-mate> but it's an ABI
05:32 < p2-mate> it does require the BX instruction though
05:32 < p2-mate> one advantage is that EABI is supported by most arm compilers and on linux, symbian and wince
05:32 < mrvn> faster?
05:33 < p2-mate> better use of registers as well I think yes
05:33 < p2-mate> it allows the use VFP hw on cores that support it
05:34 < dam> p2-mate: great summary. thanks
05:34 < p2-mate> the BX instruction and thumb state requirement can be considered as a dirty trick by ARM, because it ARM has patents in this area afaik 
05:35 < p2-mate> so in order to make a core which can be used by modern tools, you need to get an expensive license from ARM
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05:36 < ari> bitchx instruction
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05:45 < ron> p2-mate: you mean armv4t right?  arm7 has thumb and BX ...
05:45 < mrvn> is it opposable?
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05:51 < ron> more like imposable, that's what BX does
05:52 < helix> b(x)
05:53 < mrvn> what does bx do?
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05:54 < ron> sticks its thumb up your instruction set
05:57 < p2-mate> ron: hmm
05:57 < p2-mate> ron: does it ?
05:57 < p2-mate> I guess that might still work then
05:57 < p2-mate> not all arm7's have thumb state though
05:58 < mrvn> seriously. What does bx and thumb do?
05:58 < p2-mate> strongarm doesn't for example
05:58 < p2-mate> thumb is arm's equivalent of mips16
05:58 < p2-mate> bx allows jumping between thumb code and arm code
05:59 < mrvn> hmm, how does that make the abi better? Doesn't sound like something the abi has to require
05:59 < ron> I thought the strongarms were v4 ...  its the 4t that first got thumb...  the 7TDMI has it at least and that claims to be v4t
06:01 < p2-mate> mrvn: it has to specify the calling convention
06:02 < p2-mate> ron: strong arm is v4 yes
06:02 < mrvn> p2-mate: sure. but why wouldn't a 32bit armel program (one that doesn't use thumbs) run on a cpu without bx/thumbs?
06:03 < p2-mate> mrvn: because it uses bx for all calls
06:03 < mrvn> ah, ok.
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06:05 < seanius> anyone see when i dropped off the net?
06:06 < jamessan> seanius: 3.5 hours ago
06:06 < p2-mate> mrvn: so in theory it could work on a CPU which has bx but no thumb support, but those don't exist afaik
06:06 < kees> yeah: 16:31 -!- seanius [~seanius@cobija.connexer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:06 < kees> (20:06 UTC now)
06:07 < seanius> kees: jamessan: k thanks.    seems my colo server is down :(
06:07 < mrvn> p2-mate: catching the SIGILL for bx and emulating it would probably kill performance beyond usable.
06:08 < mrvn> right?
06:08 < p2-mate> yes
06:08 < kees> seanius: :(  I've been seeing too much of that lately.
06:09 < pusling> seanius: hunt them down and kill them with a spoon.
06:09 < seanius> just gives me an excuse to not read my mail and play with fun stuff some more
06:09 < pusling> you can fix my email ?
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06:39 < pusling> buxy: dpkg doesn't handle large packages ;)
06:39 -!- dancerj [dancer@wdb1-p2.tepco.hi-ho.ne.jp] has joined #debian-devel
06:40 < adsb> That's not large, that's silly ;)
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06:49 < mooch> sgran: ping
06:50 < ari> that's not true, it handles openarena
06:50 < p2-mate> mooch !
06:51 < mooch> p2-mate: what up!
06:51 < adsb> ari: The package in question is 6.6GB :)
06:51 < pusling> I wonder if dvd build script can split packages
06:51 < p2-mate> mooch: alive :)
06:51 < adsb> Doubtful
06:52 < mooch> p2-mate: good
06:52 < p2-mate> a 6.6GB package ?
06:52 < p2-mate> whaw :)
06:52 < p2-mate> mooch: how is dublin ?
06:52 < pusling> p2-mate: dpkg "runs over"
06:52 < KiBi> Full of Guinness.
06:52 < adsb> "overflows" ;)
06:52 < p2-mate> which package is that ?
06:52 < pusling> some dude in #-mentors with "my.deb"
06:53 < p2-mate> :)
06:53 < mooch> rainy, sunny the rest of the time, with guinness and some googlers around
06:53 < pusling> can I have some googlers with that guinnes ?
06:53 < p2-mate> mooch: ah
06:53 < p2-mate> mooch: no rain here :)
06:53 < p2-mate> a lot of sun
06:53 < p2-mate> no guinness :)
06:54 < pusling> p2-mate: still up north drinking lapin kulta ?
06:54 < p2-mate> pusling: I have my own stock of belgian beer
06:54 < mooch> p2-mate: sun in helsinki? that is new...
06:54 < p2-mate> lapin kulta is not beer
06:55 < p2-mate> mooch: :)
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06:56 < p2-mate> mooch: +20C today :)
06:56 < p2-mate> open sky
06:57 < mooch> p2-mate: finland has changed a lot since i left
06:57 < p2-mate> hehe
06:57 < p2-mate> you left in wintertime :)
06:57 < p2-mate> well almost winter time
06:58 < p2-mate> so yes, things changed a lot
06:59 < p2-mate> pusling: otoh I don't really understand why people complain about the taste of lapin kulta, as it does not have any taste :)
07:00 < pusling> haven't had them for a long time - since my father quite some time ago happy came home from the supermarket with a 6-pack fo lapinkulta
07:00 < p2-mate> pusling: hehe
07:01 < p2-mate> pusling: there is no reason to try it :)
07:01 < seanius> blech
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07:02 < p2-mate> maybe they could advertise with 'lapin kulta probably the worst beer in the world' :)
07:03 < mooch> lapin kulta, probably the only gasified water that we call beer in the world
07:03 < p2-mate> hehe :)
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07:04 < p2-mate> s/we/finns/
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07:09 < pusling> gah. something is playing music on my computer.. how do I locate (and kill it)
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07:10 < seanius> lsof/fuser ?
07:12 < pusling> ah. I was having a stale nspluginviewer hanging
07:12 < sgran> mooch: contentless pong
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07:21 < bcochofel> Hi, I'm trying to use dh_make on a source dir for a package but I need to pass oprions to ./configure
07:22 < bcochofel> How can I "convert" the ./configure options to debian/rules?
07:22 < weasel> vi
07:23 < stew> bcochofel: you edit debian/rules and change the line that calls ./configure
07:25 < pusling> weasel: you are having  a clone on freenode ;)   23:12 -!- weaseal [n=weaseal@unaffiliated/weaseal] has joined #kde
07:25 < weasel> kill it
07:27 < bcochofel> stew: something like config.status: configure?
07:28 < pusling> how do I read Makefiles ?
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07:30 < Manoj> pusling: what, you no longer like vi?
07:30 < pusling> Manoj: I prefer the improved version
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07:31 < stew> bcochofel: seems like you need to read up on makefile programming
07:31 < Zomb> wget -S http://svn.debian.org/
07:31 < Zomb>   Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml
07:31 < Zomb> why not just html?
07:32 < Zomb> current IE does not display this page (suggests to download this binary file xhtml...)
07:32 < bcochofel> Zomb: xhtml+xml is the new standard
07:32 < Sesse> does IE8 support it yet?
07:32 < bcochofel> Zomb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML
07:33 < Zomb> maybe, but it confuses old browsers like this one
07:33 < bcochofel> stew: ok, I know a little about that but never look at debian/rules before
07:34 < pusling> Zomb: using dillo?
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07:41 < weasel> hmm.
07:42 < weasel> any idea why network manage takes ages connecting me to the wifi when I come back from suspend while it works instantly when I login for the first time after bootin?
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07:42  * weasel suspects part of the answer is "because n-m is crap"
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07:45 < Sesse> weasel: for me, the problem seems to be that the network card is not 100% up once the resume has happened
07:45 < Sesse> so n-m polls it, and gets no info
07:45 < Sesse> then waits a while until it tries again
07:45 < weasel> hmm.
07:45 < weasel> shouldn't the network hardware send a signal of sorts ones its completely back up?
07:46 < weasel> and shouldn't n-m subscribe to that and then do the Right Thing?
07:46 < Sesse> dunno, last time I asked I got a very terse reply back that my wifi driver sucked :-)
07:46 < weasel> I'm sure that's the case.  but n-m sucks also
07:46 < Sesse> yes
07:46 < Sesse> you cannot really expect perfect wifi drivers
07:47 < weasel> I want my ibook g3 back
07:47 < weasel> everything. just. worked.
07:47 < Sesse> the response was like "so? port your driver to the 802.11 stack, it's a fun project"
07:47 < weasel> even suspend and resume was faster than it's now on my thinkpad
07:47 < weasel> and that was 4 years ago
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08:56 < mooch> sgran: instead of rm -f you could use rm || true
08:56 < mrvn> but why? and that's not the same
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08:57 < mooch> mrvn: hmmm
08:57 < mrvn> rm -f will give you an error if you have no permissions for example. || true will succeed.
08:58 < sgran> mooch: it's not an error if the file isn't there when rm is called
08:58 < mooch> true
08:59 < sgran> I'd prefer an rm --ignore-enoent argument, but there doesn't seem to be one
08:59 < mrvn> sgran: and on wrong permissions it should go interactive?
08:59 < sgran> since this is run as root, I doubt that's likely
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09:02 < MadCoder> ScottK: then you want test -f foo && rm foo
09:02 < MadCoder> gah
09:02 < MadCoder> sgran: 
09:03 < sgran> and close your eyes and pretend there's no race condition?
09:03 < MadCoder> race what ?
09:03 < MadCoder> :P
09:03 < MadCoder> oh it's run as root, well, rm -f looks fine
09:03 < KiBi> race against the machine
09:03 < MadCoder> unless you're using some strange selinux thing
09:04 < KiBi> Are you calling him Manoj?
09:04 < sgran> *shrug* that's their problem then, not mine :)
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09:04 < MadCoder> :)
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09:08 < ema29> sgran: what exactly is wrong with rm -f? if it has any errors do you not want to handle them?
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09:09 < sgran> I am using rm -f.  It was suggested I use rm || true instead
09:10 < sgran> but I don't want to see stderr warnings on enoent, which was the point of -f
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09:10 < sgran> as I say, I'd prefer rm --ignore-enoent, but there doesn't seem to be such a thing
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09:11 < ema29> rm -f foo (where foo doesn't exist) doesn't give me any error messages
09:12 < sgran> yes
09:12 < ema29> is this not exactly what you want?
09:12 < ema29> I'm probably missing the point, feel free to tell me shut up
09:13 < mrvn> sgran: the only other thing -f seems to do is not ask if it has no permissions
09:13 < sgran> ema29: I believe that if you look 5 lines up, you'll see that I am using it for exactly that reason
09:13 < sgran> mrvn: which is also fine, in this context
09:13 < sgran> since that can't or shouldn't happen
09:13 < pusling> -rm -rf
09:14 < mrvn> sgran: maybe thats the reason we don't see a point for --ignore-enoent
09:14 < ema29> so the problem is it's ignoring other errors you don't want to?
09:14 < sgran> ema29: there. is. no. problem.
09:14 < ema29> so, I'm the problem then? ;)
09:14 < mrvn> ema29: congratulations. YOu won 99 gummy points
09:14 < ema29> mm
09:15 < mjj29> hi ed
09:15 < ema29> hi Matt
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11:08 < taggart> suggestions on how to have a Makefile install a hierarchy of files from a source tree onto the system?
11:09 < taggart> right now my upstream is using this:
11:09 < taggart> tar -cf - `find . -type f | grep -v svn | grep -E "(php|css|htm|html|dtd|htc|gif)$$"` | (cd ../install/$(WEBDIR) ; tar -xvf -)
11:09 < taggart> which is gross IMO
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11:11 < stew> what is the criteria (if any) for a manpage going into section 1x instead of section 1?
11:11 < stew> it looks kinda arbitrary to me
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11:12 < ScottK> stew: Did you rean man man?
11:14 < stew> yes
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12:32 < ari> what menu section should docker be in
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13:43 < paravoid> how the f*ck can I tell libtool to create a soname of libfoo.0.0.4.so?
13:51 < paravoid> ah, found it
13:52 < paravoid> (that was .so.0.0.4 of course)
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18:17 < borco> hi
18:18 < borco> MadCoder, hi
18:18 < borco> MadCoder, are you the same with madcoder@debian.org?
18:19 < MadCoder> depends who is asking
18:19 < borco> MadCoder, hehe :)
18:19 < buxy> a testing user ! :-)
18:19 < borco> MadCoder, i'm a dev on vacation
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18:20 < borco> MadCoder, I'm waiting for a reply from madcoder@debian.org and i get no answer from him :(
18:20 < borco> MadCoder, so i've come here in the hope he's around ... :)
18:21 < borco> MadCoder, to ping him in person :)
18:21 < pusling> MadCoder: time to hide ;)
18:21 < buxy> borco: MadCoder is madcoder@d.o
18:21 < MadCoder> borco: an answer to ?
18:21 < MadCoder> I don't think I have pending mails
18:21 < borco> MadCoder, to my e-mail from LinkedIn debian group
18:21 < borco> MadCoder, i wanted to join a group you apparently manage
18:22 < MadCoder> hmm never got one unless it's less than 12h old
18:22 < borco> sent you one some time ago. sent you another one just minutes ago :)
18:22 < MadCoder> probably got eaten by my antispam
18:22 < pusling> evil antispam
18:23 < MadCoder> evil spams
18:24 < MadCoder> I would not lose mail if there wasn't any
18:24 < borco> MadCoder, let me know if i should resend it and how :-D
18:24 < borco> MadCoder, ... in order to get it ...
18:24 < MadCoder> borco: no I just need to connect to the website and accept you which I just did
18:25 < MadCoder> and now I have to walk through the other 26 people waiting for me it seems
18:25 < borco> MadCoder, super-cool :-D
18:25 < MadCoder> *g*
18:25 < borco> MadCoder, ;-)
18:25 < borco> MadCoder, thanx.
18:25 < borco> ok guys. that was for now :-)
18:25 < borco> bye
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18:56 < ifvoid> how long does it take for ssh keys to migrate through teh ldap thingie?
18:58 < MadCoder> 15 minutes
18:58 < KiBi> Slightly longer that if it was done at light speed.
18:58 < MadCoder> up to
19:02 < ifvoid> ok, thansk
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20:26 < smithh> man ruby sucks
20:26 < smithh> in comparison to php
20:27 < smithh> Ruby is insanely slow and Rails is braindead
20:27 < KiBi> "man ruby" sucks, or man "ruby sucks"?
20:27 < smithh> "ruby sucks"
20:28 < smithh> the language is more powerful than PHP, but that's about all positive I can say about it
20:31 < noshadow> last I looked at it, it had a very coherent naming of the standard library.
20:31  * HE wonders how to measure how powerful a language is
20:31 < smithh> I blogged pretty extensively on the problems I had with Rails 
20:31 < Mez> Who can I poke for a feature request for piuparts?
20:31 < stockholm> i like you can code object oriented with it
20:32 < smithh> Disclaimer: I'm a schemer, so I'm biased
20:32 < smithh> :P
20:32 < HE> Mez: The BTS
20:32 < Mez> HE, ah, fair enough ;) 
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20:33 < HE> smithh: Ah, by biased you mean "your taste is awful and your notion of a beautiful programming language is abnormal"? :-P
20:34 < smithh> yeah:)
20:34 < bremner> (don't (pick (on (the (schemers))))
20:34 < smithh> Lisp warps your brain
20:34 < smithh> heheh bremner
20:34 < Mithrandir> ruby is fucked for other reasons, though. :-P
20:35  * Mithrandir ruffles perl
20:35 < AzaTht> # debian/rules file - for debian/keyring\n# Based on sample debian/rules file - for GNU Hello (1.3). ← isn't that low? ツ
20:35 < HE> Eh?
20:49 < vdanjean> weasel: Hi. I would like you to install builddeps of libicu38 and the libicu38-dbg package in the sid chroot. yaz bug #483649 seems to be in fact libicu38 bug (opened as #484138)
20:49 < vdanjean> weasel: sid chroot of the agnesi machine
20:50 < smithh> anyone happen to be using flock
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20:53 < Lutin> HE: could you give-back edje, efreet, edbus and e17 on amd64/experimental please ?
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21:24 < zack> anybody knows if Gerrit Pape hang out on IRC usually? db.debian.org does not mention a irc nickname for him ...
21:25 < KiBi> zack: never seen him
21:28 < zack> k
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21:57 < weasel> vdanjean: can only be a matter of hours now
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22:00  * KiBi slaps linuxmaniac_away.
22:01 -!- rpereira [~rpereira@200.162.94.1] has joined #debian-devel
22:06 < vdanjean> weasel: thanks
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22:22 < seanius> lol vista: "For added security, you can require users to press Ctrl+Alt+Delete before logging on..."
22:23 < pusling> it is actually true.
22:23 < mrvn_> keeps out morons that always manage to break things.
22:24 < seanius> maybe if you could remap ctrl-alt-delete back to the original use...
22:24 < pusling> it prevents evil-people to create a app that looks like the login screen, but instead logs the passsword
22:25 -!- Frolic [~ederm@frolic.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian-devel
22:25 < kaol> what prevents the app from trapping c-a-d?
22:25 < pusling> windows
22:25 < melco> seanius: IT's a security feature :P so what pressing ALT+CTRL+DEL twice lets you log in as 'admin'
22:26 < seanius> nothing prevents a stupid/clueless user from being tricked
22:26 < zack> dato: any plan to migrate python-debian from bzr to git? after your git entusiasm I thought you were going to propose it, but it hasn't happened (yet) :-P
22:26 < white> seanius: wait until the first people make a feature request for our desktops ;)
22:26 < seanius> i.e. they might not realize that they were supposed to see a screen saying "press control-alt-delete to start"
22:27 < zack> dato: I doubt godog, enrico, myself would be against it, dunno for james
22:27  * seanius using python-debian in the past week, neat library :)
22:27 < zack> seanius: spread the verb then :)
22:27 < melco> seanius: stupid today, expert tommorrow? :P
22:27 < pusling> euww... seanius is using python
22:28 < seanius> i still have my issues with python, but for this particular use i think it will work quite well
22:29 < seanius> better than perl or php anyway
22:29 < pusling> you found a way to use curly braces and ignore whitespaces and adding strict typing  to python ?
22:29 < zack> seanius: btw, do you have any timing about how long it will take to dpkg-source -x all .dsc in the archive? (or maybe you are just parsing .diff.gz so you don't know that ...)
22:30 < seanius> zack: yeah i'm not unpacking anything
22:30 < zack> though this way you won't be able to support future debian source formats
22:30 < mrvn_> zack: how fast is your disk?
22:31 < seanius> zack: "it will be supported"
22:31 < zack> mrvn_: I was thinking at virtual hosted servers, no idea about the hardware
22:31 < zack> seanius: it is quite hard in fact, especially with python
22:31 < zack> for instance, the bz2 module is not has featureful as gz
22:31 < zack> and lzma is no way
22:31 < seanius> you can get the format just by reading the .dsc file though
22:32 < zack> so even just adding support for the different kind of tarballs supported by dpkg-source is PITA
22:32 < seanius> and i have no problem, at least initially, with delegating the unpacking to an os.system() call :)
22:32 < zack> seanius: ah yes :)
22:32 < zack> and that leads to my question about dpkg-source -x timing :-P
22:33 < seanius> zack: unfortunately i don't have disk space on my laptop for an entire mirror of sources, i believe
22:33 < seanius> but i imagine that one could download, say, pool/main/a and run a quick test and extrapolate it to the full archive
22:34 -!- Pepper [~Pepper@80-121-118-157.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
22:34 < seanius> simiarly, though, i'm currently delegating diff generation to an os.system on filterdiff and patch
22:35 < seanius> s/simia/simila/
22:41 < seanius> oh yay, no work tomorrow
22:42 < pusling> bastard.
22:42 < stockholm> seanius: public holiday!!!
22:42 < stockholm> me too!
22:42 < stockholm> haha!
22:42 < KiBi> so you can fix c-ares again? :)
22:42 < stockholm> KiBi: i did that this morning
22:42 < mrvn_> Does Linux support the AES hardware on a VIA Eden cpu?
22:42 < KiBi> and yesterday too :)
22:42 < seanius> \o/  gotta run to the booze store before they close this afternoon :)
22:42 < stockholm> KiBi: right!
22:43 < stockholm> KiBi: shut up now, i felt embarrassed enough
22:43  * KiBi shuts up.
22:43 < stockholm> :-)
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22:53 < p2-mate> mrvn_: isn't AES hw on VIA eden just a userspace instruction ?
22:53 < mrvn_> p2-mate: no idea.
22:54 -!- mrvn_ is now known as mrvn
22:54 < mjj29> p2-mate: even so, there are crypto things in the kernel you would want to use it for
22:54 < mrvn> Still want dm-crypt to use it.
22:55 < mrvn> It also has a RNG and SHA thing and the RNG feeds into the SHA hardware. WTF?
22:55 < mrvn> Lets randomize our hashes.
22:56 < p2-mate> mrvn: drivers/crypto/padlock-aes.c 
22:56 -!- _rene__ [~rene@dslb-088-064-137-206.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #debian-devel
22:57 < seanius> in soviet russia hashes randomize you
22:57 < seanius> in amsterdam hash randomizes you
22:57 < p2-mate> use more hash
22:58 < mrvn> p2-mate: great.
23:02 < mjj29> mrvn: you do want to hash your randomness though
23:02 < mrvn> true
23:02 < mrvn> Probabyl the simplest way to remove bias from the RNG.
23:02 < mjj29> yeah
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23:03 < mjj29> good PRNGs hash all the entropy sources into the pool anyway
23:03 < mrvn> like openSSL? :)
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23:03 < mjj29> it did hash all the entropy sources into the pool
23:03 < mjj29> there just weren't many entropy sources
23:04 -!- emptty [~mquinson@guest-116.loria.fr] has joined #debian-devel
23:05 < emptty> buxy: hello
23:05 < zumbi_> somebody know where can i find status buildd code? hg clone static-http://buildd.debian.org/~jeroen/status/ seems not to be working
23:06 < pabs> jvw: ^^
23:07 < KiBi> MadCoder might have a copy as well.
23:07 < buxy> hi emptty
23:08 < emptty> buxy: here I am. Still alive ;)
23:08 < emptty> Do you mind switching to devel-fr?
23:08 < KiBi> emptty: Re: your bug mail, nowhere since I totally forgot about that one.
23:08 < buxy> glad to hear that!
23:08 < MadCoder> zumbi_: theres a link on the page
23:08 < buxy> emptty: sure, I'm there as wel
23:08 < buxy> +
23:08 < MadCoder> hg clone worked for me
23:09 -!- vdanjean [~vdanjean@cayuga.imag.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:09 < Clint> what on earth is static-http:// ?
23:09 -!- docelic [~docelic@78.134.201.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:09 < KiBi> Clint: nondynamic-http://
23:09 < zumbi_> MadCoder: abort: 'http://buildd.debian.org/~jeroen/status/' does not appear to be an hg repository!
23:10  * Clint squints.
23:10 -!- dancerj [dancer@wdb1-p2.tepco.hi-ho.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:10 < MadCoder> Clint: hg-crap
23:10 < KiBi> ImportError: No module named mercurial
23:10 < KiBi> yay, the bug Joss mentioned earlier.
23:12 < MadCoder> zumbi_: static-http://experimental.ftbfs.de/new/
23:12 < MadCoder> it works there
23:12 < MadCoder> I assume buildd.d.o has changed some apache rules so that the .hg directory isn't world readable anymore
23:12 < MadCoder> or sth like that
23:12 < MadCoder> I don't know mercurial at all
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23:25 < Corsac> git-hg!
23:25 < KiBi> meeeh, that's my sentence.
23:29 < pabs> anyone know when Debian's IRC channels began? debian-history doesn't seem to know about that :(
23:29 -!- d0rt [~ni@fs226-154.bard.edu] has joined #debian-devel
23:31 < KiBi> #debian-highlander
23:33 < pusling> pabs: try the -private archives ?
23:34 < zumbi_> MadCoder: ack thanks
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23:39 < Rhonda> silly upgrade from tiger to panther did kill my openfirmware boot loader ...  how to get it back? debian-boot-cd ... and then what?
23:41 < mrvn> Didn't know debian would run on wildlife.
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23:43 < Rhonda> Hmm, what was that channel again? neither #debian-ppc nor -powerpc? Or is it on freenode?
23:44 < Rhonda> ah, without the -
23:44 < KiBi> #debianppc
23:45 < pabs> pusling: ah, thanks. looks like since at least 1997
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23:46 < dato> zack: well, I guess I haven't proposed it because I haven't been actively hacking on it since I became a git enthusiast. ;)
23:46 < dato> zack: though I'd be happier if you propose it on the list :P
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--- Day changed Fri Jun 06 2008
00:02 < seanius> ahaha, Surströmming hits planet
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00:22 < zack> dato: any idea on how to migrate from bzr to git ?
00:22 < zack> before proposing it we need a migration plan ..
00:22 < dato> bzr-fast-export
00:22 < dato> it should be straightforward to use, though I don't mind doing it myself if you prefer
00:23 < zack> dato: I'll propose the migration and that you will do it then :-P
00:23 < dato> ok :)
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00:24 < plopix> if anyone has a migration script for hg -> git ... /me would be glad to use it
00:26 -!- tomv_w [~tomv_w@mail.beamnet.de] has left #debian-devel [Ciao]
00:26 < AzaTht> where is the env var DEBFULLNAME/DEBEMAIL documented?
00:27 < liable> man dch
00:27 < adsb-work> debchange(1)
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00:28 < AzaTht> ok
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00:29 < Manoj> zack: also lok at git-fast-import
00:29 < Manoj> look, even
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00:38 < idnar> quick, name a standard priority package
00:38 < seanius> cron?
00:39 < seanius> d'oh
00:39 < seanius> at
00:40 < idnar> thanks
00:40 < idnar> man, I'm lazy
00:40 < jamessan> how do I grep-dctrl?
00:40 < pusling> did I NM-ask idnar about that ?
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00:41 < idnar> pusling: nope!
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00:44 < pusling> heh.
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00:53 < jonnylamb> plopix: /usr/share/doc/git-core/contrib/hg-to-git/hg-to-git.py
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00:56 < dato> Manoj: of course, bzr-fast-export needs git-fast-import.
00:56 < Manoj> dato: I was actually looking for that man page, but I do not have it installed on my machine, and I am too lazy
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00:57 < dato> heh
00:57 < dato> laters
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01:09 < daven> Sledge: are they still trying to sell plastic trikes?
01:10  * daven is upset that they went from being a rather expensive parts store to selling plastic battery powered tricycles.
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01:12 < daven> also, wrong channel.
01:12  * KiBi thought he was lacking some bits of context.
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01:16 < eigood> Radio Shack: You have question, we have questions.
01:17 < p2-mate> Radio Shack ?? I thought they died decades ago
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01:21 < ron> trs2k
01:24 < bdefreese> hah
01:25 < p2-mate> ron: yeah, but that was in the 80s :)
01:26 < ron> now they sell them inside fluffy talking dolls
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01:30 < Manoj> Hmm. I would have thought that 408500 was a no-brainer, but should it be introduced via policy, as opposed to the ftp-master/release manager direvctive? and for non-arch-all packages, is it not effectlively enforced for all but one arches anyway due to buildds?
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01:40 < Baby> nyu: ping!
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02:16 < KiBi> doko: re -newmaint, you'd need to sign your mail.
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02:52 < kees> seanius: that ctrl-alt-del thing is just windows' SAK key: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/SAK.txt;hb=HEAD
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02:55 < nyu> Baby: pong
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03:04 < Baby> nyu: I'm preparing packages for rc2 in experimental
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03:05 < Baby> I've also added support for opengl alternative, if wa want to upload without it in a 1st upload we can comment out those lines
03:05 < Baby> I'm still testing it, but I plan to upload it to experimental tomorrow, hopefully
03:06 < nyu> Baby: ah, cool
03:07 < Baby> :)
03:07 < Baby> I' ve just uploaded my changes to svn in case you want to have a look at them
03:07 < nyu> Baby: I don't mind.  IIRC NEW uploads to exp don't block uploads to sid
03:07 < Baby> only one extra package seems to be needed for opengl, lets see :)
03:07 < Baby> oki, no problem then :)
03:08 < nyu> how well does opengl work?
03:08 < Baby> still testing it
03:09 < Baby> I' ll tell you about it tomorrow :) I'm still compiling it all again :P :)
03:11 < Baby> I'm leaving now, cu!
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03:16 < siretart> I remember somone drew a very nice diagramm describing the workflows involved with the debian release process
03:16 < siretart> but I fail to find it in google. does someone remember where to fin them?
03:17 < Sesse> hm, I recall some diagram debian-women made about package states?
03:18 < Sesse> but that's perhaps something else
03:18 < siretart> that's not what I mean. I'd like to explain the debian release process to my LUG
03:18 < Baby> siretart: I think you mean Rene Merou's diagram?
03:19 < siretart> Baby: do you have a link at hand?
03:19 < Baby> It might be in Bulma's website if that's the one you're refering to
03:19 < Baby> I can find it and you can check if that's the one you want :)
03:21 < siretart> ok :)
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03:23 < Baby> http://es.gnu.org/~reneme/map/
03:23 < Baby> lets see if it's there
03:24 < Baby> not that one... I'll keep searching
03:24 < Baby> here in Spanish: http://www.bulma.net/body.phtml?nIdNoticia=2295
03:25 < siretart> yes, that is for free software in general
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03:25 < siretart> I remember a diagram explaining how testing works, what is experimental, what are debian measure for QA
03:26 < siretart> I'm pretty sure I've seem them at some exhibition... hmm
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03:27 < Baby> :)
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03:42 < ron> siretart: it's not the one I was thinking of either, but teh oracle has one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian
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03:44 < Manoj> madduck has a diagram about stages of software packages in Debian
03:45 < Manoj> I think I might have also seen that on wikipedia
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03:57 < siretart> I found it: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Debian-package-cycle.svg 
03:57 < siretart> thanks folks!
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04:01 < Manoj> is eitherof tempfile(1) or mktemp(1) preferred over the other?
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04:01 < Clint> i suggest preferring mktemp
04:04 < Manoj> it does seem to be more flexible, creating directories according to template, allowing you to secify a dir, etc
04:05 < Clint> and if coreutils ever starts shipping it, it'll be much more maintained
04:05 < Manoj> Oh.
04:06 < Clint> but i have no idea how long it will take mstone to do that
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04:16 < OdyX> How should I tag a bug to ensure that it leaves testing (axiom is completely unuseable under amd64 ) ?
04:17 < jcristau> OdyX: severity:grave
04:17 < OdyX> Ok. will do. Thanks
04:17 < bzed> only on amd64 is not really grave. serious is enough, and ping a RM if you want to ahve it removed fast
04:18 < jcristau> bzed: yes, it's really grave
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04:21 < Rhonda> Anyone using a custom script instead of uupdate in debian/watch?
04:22 < bzed> jcristau: axiom starts on amd64, the example stuff works for me, not sure why it is not useable at all.
04:23 < OdyX> bzed I don't know, but I just tried to reinstall from scratch and it did not boot...
04:23 < jcristau> bzed: i have no idea about this particular bug/package
04:24 < OdyX> jcristau & bzed: #475170
04:24 < OdyX> s/boot/start/
04:24 < Lutin> doesn't it FTBFS, too ?
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04:27 < bzed> well, no idea :)
04:27 < jcristau> bzed: i'm just saying 'is unusable on $arch' is grave, not serious
04:28 < bzed> I'm no axiom user, but it did something, so it can't be completely broken
04:29 < OdyX> bzed: it did for me too...
04:29 < bzed> jcristau: well yes. that was expressed a bit weird from me
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04:32 < OdyX> bzed: part of the problem is probably that the packaged upstream is 20050901 and that the latest upstream is 20080325 (two years and a half shift...)
04:37 < bzed> if you find somebody who want to upload it as a NMU
04:37 < bzed> the maintainer's qa page is full of NMUs, that doesn;t look good
04:38 < OdyX> MIA ?
04:39 < OdyX> Well.. I don't need Axiom for the moment... so... ;)
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04:41 < suihkulokki> OdyX: you might want to try rebuilding Axiom
04:42 < suihkulokki> OdyX: it seems to bootstraps itself during build, so build fails, it will give some insight where
04:44 < OdyX> well.. that's maybe a too big piece of cake to enter the party...
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04:45 < Manoj> Clint: at one point you epxressed interest in helping out with policy, no?
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04:46 < Manoj> On http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=debian-policy&repeatmerged=yes , we have 17 wishlistr bugs where an issue has been raised.
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04:47 < Manoj> We need to have someone look into the issue, see if it merits discussion, and start the ball rolling, or else close the bug out as not worth a discussion at this stage
04:48 < Manoj> Also, there are 41 bugs under discussion, I think some of them need to be closed outr and some wording proposed.
04:48 < Manoj> well, propose a change first, and then a wording, if there is a consensus
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04:55 < GyrosGeier> my dpkg-cross proposal (#457364) has a proposed wording -- not sure if that is sufficient
04:56 < GyrosGeier> hi kov
04:56 < Clint> Manoj: okay, i'll burn a few minutes
04:58 < kov> hey GyrosGeier =)
05:00 < Manoj> Clint: Thanks
05:00 < Manoj> and anyone else who wants to help out with policy issues is welcome
05:01 < Manoj> You do not need the secret cabal tattoee to participate
05:01 < Manoj> umm. tattoo, I mean
05:01 < dato> lamont: can you put somewhere in TODO to ensure jikes/hppa gets signed? no hurry at all, but I don't want it lost because it's ood in testing.
05:02 < dato> Yoe: ping
05:04 < dato> Ganneff: plplot uses control.in >control time inconditionally; in case you care to do something about it, I'm afraid I don't
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05:09 < el_cubano> seanius: ping
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05:10 < Yoe> dato: hmm?
05:11 < dato> Yoe: what does belpic need kaffe for?
05:11 < Yoe> dato: to build the jini library
05:12 < vorlon> s/jini/jni/ ?
05:12 < Yoe> though that's always been somewhat problematic
05:12 < dato> Yoe: anyway, this is just a heads-up that kaffe has been removed on arm/alpha/hppa, so you'll have to asses whether it's necessary to drop belpic there too, or they can have a "reduced" build.
05:12 < Yoe> dato: well, teh reduced one, then :)
05:12 < Yoe> vorlon: no, jini is the technology, jni is the build thing
05:12 < Yoe> at least, that's what I thought. Could be mistaken, though.
05:12 < dato> Yoe: ok :)
05:12 < Manoj> crap. I have to do the same thing for setools
05:12 < dato> more stuff off TODO, yay.
05:13 < Manoj> I wonder if Package: libsetools-jni
05:13 < Manoj> Architecture:  [!alpha !arm !hppa]
05:13 < Manoj> works
05:13 < p2-mate> Yoe: jni is an API
05:13 < dato> I don't think it does
05:13 < Yoe> Manoj: no, it doesn't
05:13 < Manoj> damn
05:13 < Yoe> Manoj: I've had a bug open for that for ages
05:14 < Manoj> it would have been cute, if it did.
05:14 < Yoe> I wish it did, since nbd-client could use it, too
05:14 < dato> people using debhelper get away with exporting -Nfoo for DH_OPTIONS
05:14 < Yoe> that's only supported in build-depends, which luckily is good enough for me (the jini library is part of libbeid2)
05:15 < dato> not sure if setools uses dh or not
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05:15 < Rhonda> Hmm, is README.source (with lowercase s) really proper?
05:15 < Yoe> Rhonda: eh, I thought that was the intended name. See policy?
05:15 < Manoj> dato: it does not, but I am not scared of looking into dh to find out what the actual mechanism is 
05:16 < Rhonda> Yes, but most other things have capital letters after the dot ...
05:16 < Rhonda> It won't go into the binary packages anyway, so ...  but still.
05:16 < dato> Manoj: well, dh_ commands just skip doing anything at all for package "foo" if -Nfoo is passed. I can't see how that would help you much
05:17 < Yoe> Rhonda: you're thinking of things like README.Debian. The capital there is because Debian is a proper name, which needs to be capitalized
05:17 < Yoe> source is not a proper name, so doesn't need to be
05:17 < Yoe> Rhonda: basic English grammer ;-P
05:17 < Rhonda> Endusers won't see it, so I don't mind too much. :)
05:17 < p2-mate> source is a german word, so it needs S no ? :)
05:17 < Yoe> p2-mate: Natürlich. Or something.
05:18 < Rhonda> But you are right, it seems to be only .Debian with an uppercase (besides those containing of pure uppercase letters)
05:18 < p2-mate> Yoe: hehe
05:18 < Manoj> dato: well, it helps in that I can also do nothing in the cases I would have passed in -Nfoo
05:19 < SniperBeamer> is it possible to tell cdbs not to create usr/share/doc/... but instead link to a common doc dir?
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05:19 < Yoe> p2-mate: actually, it will need commas. L,o,a,d,s, ,o,f, ,c,o,m,m,a,s,.,
05:20 < p2-mate> hehe
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05:33  * GyrosGeier wonders if he should make libopenusb static-only
05:34 < GyrosGeier> .so.0 -> .so.0.0.1 sounds like the ABI is not that stable
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05:46 < seanius> el_cubano: pong
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05:48 < Manoj> so, if I build-depend on default-jdk-builddep, then I will have a javac to play around with in my ./debian/rules, right? at least, that ought to be the whole reason for default-jdk-builddep
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05:51 < seanius> gr, this arbitrary sleep 10 in the apache2 init script is seriously annoying me
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06:17 < GyrosGeier> hmm
06:17 < GyrosGeier> if Sun forked a LGPL'd project
06:18 < GyrosGeier> should I still list the original upstream authors in the copyright file?
06:18 < GyrosGeier> (they seem not to be involved in the fork)
06:18 < mrvn> GyrosGeier: Did he stop having written that code?
06:18 < jcristau> they're still the authors. so yes
06:18 < GyrosGeier> okay
06:19 < GyrosGeier> I mean, below "Authors"
06:19 < GyrosGeier> that they are copyright holders is obvious
06:19 < GyrosGeier> but they are not the upstream authors in that case
06:20  * GyrosGeier also kicks Sun for claiming a copyright with a year range
06:21 < azeem> a year range like 99-2020?
06:21 < p2-mate> -2000 - 2050 ? :)
06:22 < vorlon> they are certainly "authors" if any substantial part of their code is still included
06:22 < vorlon> they're just not the upstream maintainers
06:22  * seanius goes huh. python-pysqlite2 - Python interface to SQLite 3
06:23 < GyrosGeier> vorlon, that was my question -- how to interpret the "Upstream Author(s)" section in the copyright file
06:24 < Mithrandir> it's never kept up to date and I don't believe it has any legal value, so why keep it?
06:24 < vorlon> GyrosGeier: <shrug> the use of 'authors' is basically the Wrong Thing to have at all for copyright purposes
06:24 < dato> seanius: you don't need that if you use python 2.5, btw.
06:25 < vorlon> you have to document who the copyright holder is, which in the case of any work-for-hire, is not the author
06:25 < vorlon> (or in the case of copyright transfer/sale)
06:26 < vorlon> so "authors" is just a nice extra
06:26 < panthera> GyrosGeier: i use it as upstream contact address/person.
06:26 < GyrosGeier> hm
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06:26 < GyrosGeier> that is also my interpretation
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06:27 < GyrosGeier> but that would be Sun, respective the people there, not the authors of the forked library
06:28 < panthera> jup
06:28 < seanius> hehe
06:28 < seanius> "part of my work is being a sysadmin. In the past 10 years I setup any kind of service. Name it. We did it. Never, ever, I found something so fucked up like trac."
06:29 < Mithrandir> vorlon: though, in practice, "nobody" keeps the list of copyright holders up to date either, so it's not that useful.
06:29 < seanius>  -- http://www.initd.org/
06:29 < vorlon> Mithrandir: well, yes, that's a bug. :)
06:30 < p2-mate> seanius: I bet they never set up clearcase :)
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06:31 < Mithrandir> vorlon: is the list of copyright holders actually useful?  I use the licence information every now and then, but I don't think I've used the copyright holder information for anything.
06:31 < vorlon> Mithrandir: its utility is legal
06:32 < vorlon> certainly, if memory serves, it's supposed to be there in the binary distribution for any GPL app
06:32 < Manoj> I think you also need the names for BSD icenses
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06:37 < Manoj> I should really test setools new build on alpha, arm, or hppa
06:37 < Manoj> but it has mad build dependencies
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06:39 < Manoj> what do people use to satisfy the build dependencies of their packages in a clean chroot?
06:40 < Manoj> I can manually look at dpkg-checkbuildeps output, and install the missing ones, but that seems hoary
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06:40 < TCW> hi
06:40 < Manoj> I used to hae a satisfy-buildeps script, but that turns out to be buggy, and rather than invest my time fixiong it, I am turning to the intaweb
06:40 < kov> Manoj: you can use the pbuilder script
06:41 < Mithrandir> Manoj: /usr/lib/pbuilder/bin/pbuilder-satisfydepends-aptitude, iirc.
06:41 < kov> /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-satisfydepends
06:41 < Mithrandir> s/bin\///
06:41 < Mithrandir> that works reasonably well
06:41 < TCW> samba related folks around? I'd like to discuss the user / group / machine scripts one must define in smb.conf to add / modfy users and groups from a windows box (using srvtools.exe for example)
06:44 < Manoj> Oh, cool. It is in a language I understand
06:44 < TCW> I don't see a reason why ithe debian package does not provide examples for those "scripts", there is just the "add user script" noted (more or less, a small paragraph in the heavily commented smb.conf)
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06:46 < docelic> migus ping
06:46 < TCW> As the syntax for those commands differ VASTLY from distro to distro, I think it would be very good idea to provide (on debian working) examples...
06:47 < mrvn> the api should be the same for the script.
06:47 < jordi> I just got a HD that is suspicious of being bad, but I suspect it was the motherboard what made the box act weird
06:47 < jordi> what tests can I perform to knwo it's state?
06:47 < jordi> I just enabled smartd, but honestly I can't read any of its output :)
06:48 < mrvn> jordi: smartctl -a, badblocks, smartctl -a
06:48 < TCW> mrvn, I discussed that with jht (samba guy) a few months ago, he noted himself the syntax does differ on different systems
06:48 < mrvn> if the output changes (reallocated blocks particulary) then repeat
06:48 < mrvn> TCW: hte syntax on how samba calls the script?
06:48  * Mithrandir just gets new drives if he even suspects one is bad.
06:49 < Manoj> this thing is really cool, way better than my hack
06:49 < mrvn> jordi: you could run my fstest prog for a while.
06:49  * Manoj flattens it into one giant script
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06:50 < mrvn> jordi: We use it at work to verify the raid boxes or the kernel patches for lustre don't write bad things.
06:50 < TCW> mrvn, for instance, as JHT wrote the samba3 docs, he used "useradd --something --blubb "bar" %G " throughout the docs, but exactly this syntax does not work on debian and it is note noted anything in the debian package afaics about that
06:50 < TCW> uups, sorry :)
06:50 < kov> Manoj: since I don't maintain perl stuff usually I just installed pbuilder in my "clean" chroots heh
06:50 < TCW> mrvn, for instance, as JHT wrote the samba3 docs, he used "useradd --something --blubb "bar" %G %U" throughout the docs, but exactly this syntax does not work on debian and it is note noted anything in the debian package afaics about that
06:50 < vorlon> TCW: the Debian package doesn't provide examples for those scripts because I go "blech" every time I look at them; file a bug with examples that you think are correct, and we can evaluate them for inclusion
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06:51 < jordi> Mithrandir: I've never seen anything bad with it. just a box was crashing, sometimes, on windows
06:51 < jordi> mrvn: badblocks isn't in Debian anymore?
06:51 < jordi> er
06:51 < mrvn> TCW: so the useradd script gets parameters --something, --blubb "string" %g and %U. Now what do they mean?
06:51 < jordi> heh
06:51 < jordi> never mind me
06:51 < mrvn> jordi: not? my sid has it
06:52 < jordi> no, yes, I thought it was in a separate package
06:52 < mrvn> TCW: your own script then has top transform that into something your distribution adduser cann handle.
06:52 < mrvn> -p
06:52 < mrvn> jordi: if "badblocks -svw" gives any bad blocks then better toss the drive.
06:53 < jordi> ugh this is goint to take a while
06:54 < mrvn> blockdev --setra 8192 device
06:54 < mrvn> and check dma mode and stuff with hdparm
06:54 < TCW> vorlon, hi :) I tried to wrote a nifty syntax a few months ago, but I could not find a perfect solution. It was more or less just a working hack. But as I don't understand _exactly_ what samba wants it is not that easy anyway... that's why I ask here. Seeing you had thought about these scripts too is nice, seeing you are more than just unhappy with your conclusions is... not so nice :)
06:55 < jordi> mrvn: I can wait for badblocks for now
06:55 < mrvn> jordi: It will fill the disk 4 times and read it 4 times. So 8 times as long as that first counter indicates.
06:55 < mrvn> jordi: did you save the smartctl -a output somewhere?
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06:56 < vorlon> TCW: heh, right, I haven't had time to examine exactly what samba wants, either
06:57 < Manoj> So, it creates a dummy package with those dependencies, installs it, and then runs aptitude install for that dummy package. since it is already installed, aptitude does nothig, except it checks to make sure the dependencies are not broken
06:57 < TCW> mrvn, in general "add a user named foo in group bla; set password for user foo" two seperate commands, no interaction allowed. Then "add machine script" it means "add the windows box blubb to the domain blabla with rights blob". The same for "add user to group" or "delete user from group"
06:57 < Manoj> that is cleaver
06:57 < Manoj> err, clever
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06:57 < jordi> mrvn: yes
06:58 < vorlon> TCW: eh, "set password for user foo" should certainly not be related here
06:58 < vorlon> setting passwords is already well-supported in the current package...
06:58 < TCW> vorlon, JHT said that, iirc
06:58 < mrvn> Manoj: don't you wish there were an "aptitude install foo.deb"?
06:58 < Manoj> yes
06:58 < TCW> vorlon, I mean not changing the password, I think of setting the password the first time
06:59 < Manoj> but it is OK; run dpkg -i foo.deb; aptitude isntall foo.deb
06:59 < Manoj> this is a neat trick
06:59 < vorlon> TCW: again, this should be handled by the existing, well-supported password interface
06:59 < vorlon> (i.e., 'passwd chat')
06:59 < mrvn> Manoj: at least with apt-get that sometimes removes foo
06:59 < Mithrandir> Manoj: have you had a chance to play with the emacs that uses gtk and xft for font rendering?
06:59 < TCW> vorlon, no idea how that intergrates with the "add user script" mechanism
06:59 < mrvn> Manoj: apt-get install -f that is
06:59 < vorlon> TCW: it doesn't; adding users and setting passwords are separate operations
07:00 < TCW> vorlon, ahh... now I get your point!
07:00 < Manoj> Mithrandir: I am using that to IRC
07:00 < mrvn> Manoj: somehow I start having to use aptitude for some feature or another apt-get should already have.
07:00 < Manoj> I don't use apt-get anymore
07:00 < Mithrandir> Manoj: do you have any way to increase and decrease font size while it's running?  When I'm tired, I tend to want bigger fonts and would like to avoid rebooting my email client.
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07:01 < mrvn> Manoj: aptitude install foo  is really ugly if it has to fix some complex problem to install foo.
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07:03 < TCW> vorlon, I think I remember now (correctly), what I had on mind was... one of my first trials with adduser NEEDED interaction as it asked to set the password (what was wrong, as that are two seperate operations) and there I asked on the samba-ml, JHT told me what was wrong... half a year passed, I mixed the facts in my brain :)
07:03 < vorlon> aha
07:03 < vorlon> right, the commented example specifically uses --disabled-password
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07:05 < TCW> vorlon, but after all... I will try to discuss the utter means of samba in those regards and then try to compose perfect command syntaxes and drop by again :)
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07:13 < Manoj> Mithrandir: todays Emacs: C-x C-+ increases, C-x C-- decreases, C-x C-= default font size
07:13 < Manoj> Mithrandir: temporary font remapping, it is called
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07:19 < Mithrandir> Manoj: have you gotten it to not resize the X window when zooming?  I've gotten the zoom bit working now.
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07:27 < xerakko> weasel, please install bulmages build-dependency's on raptor's sid chroot
07:36 < xerakko> MadCoder, do you have any news to me about cmake 2.6.0 in hppa and alpha? do you plan to upload a new cmake version for them?
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07:43 < Manoj> Mithrandir: I don't much use the resize fot option yet
07:43 < Manoj> I use big fonts _all_ the time :-)
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07:44 < weasel> xerakko: .
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07:45 < xerakko> weasel :
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07:58 < zobel> why the hell does bzr push takes AGES?!
07:58 < Manoj> it is bzr. if you had wanted speed, yo would have used git.
07:59 < Q_> zobel: So you'd stop using it?
07:59 < zobel> working on the da-tools requires using bzr. :(
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08:02 < vorlon> zobel: pushing a new branch, or to an existing one?
08:03 < zobel> new
08:03 < zobel> to lp.
08:03 < p2-mate> zobel: bzr is slow :)
08:04 < p2-mate> see Manoj :) use git !
08:04 < RAOF> There's some new bzr infrastructure coming Real Soon Now to make that fast.  At least, when it's a new branch of existing code.
08:04 < zobel> ah, done. after  8min for 80kb code.
08:04 < KiBi> amaya: W00T, I thought you were turning 42!
08:04 < RAOF> When its just a plain new branch, it's still going to be slow, 'cause you need to transfer the whole history.
08:04 < amaya> KiBi: heh
08:04 < p2-mate> KiBi: hehe
08:04 < vorlon> well, I thought using packed repos was supposed to make things Happi also
08:05 < amaya> no, i am just looking for the menaing of *my* life
08:05 < ron> but it's python, how could it possibly SUCK BEYOND ALL BELIEF ?
08:05 < p2-mate> zobel: next time you could as well type it in by hand :)
08:05 < p2-mate> ron: :)
08:06 < Q_> amaya: And did you find it?
08:06 < RAOF> vorlon: I forget what precisely the problems with initial pushing are; some are protocol-overhead, certainly.
08:07 < zobel> bzr branch seems slow as well.
08:07 < Clint> is there no procps format specifier for showing env variables?
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08:07 < seanius> Clint: the BSD-style e option doesn't cut it for ya?
08:08 < RAOF> Branch should be fairly fast after the initial branch; again, the first one is much slower.  Locally you can speed things up with a repository.
08:08 < Clint> seanius: it does, but i want to pass something to -o and use the pid
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08:19 < Manoj> faugh. default-jkk-builddep is uninstallable in a fresh chroot
08:19 < Manoj> err, default-jdk-builddep, I mean
08:20 < Manoj> I have a an inclination to just build the bloody thing on my devel box, and let the buildd's sort it out
08:20 < doko> Manoj: you can do that; the missing gcj-4.3 should be built now
08:21 < Manoj> oh, so that is what is wrong? I find it ery hard to parse what aptitude was trying to tell me
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08:24 < vorlon> yes, if you want sane debugging output, use apt-get
08:26 < el_cubano> Can any Ruby gurus provide some pointers on how to properly fix #48461{2,3,4,6}?
08:28 < Yoe> hmm, interesting
08:28 < Yoe> there actually is a standard to do hieroglyphs in Unicode
08:28  * Yoe searches for a font
08:34 < helix> donde estan
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08:37 < Yoe> eh, wow
08:37 < Yoe> I did something very, very wrong on my webserver, it seems
08:40 < Yoe> ah, no
08:40 < weasel> is there a debian/rules snippet that one should use for the parallel=x thing?
08:40 < Yoe> I wrote a blog entry about "köln". Apparently subversion does not like unicode.
08:41 < vorlon> easy to work around, just s/köln/toilet-wasser/
08:41 < Manoj> weasel: I thought the policy came with some snippets
08:42 < vorlon> also, I haven't observed that svn has any problems with unicode...
08:42 < Yoe> Well, it translated the filename to 'k?\195?\182ln' somehow...
08:42 < nenolod> winnie, is #480026 related to lilo?
08:42 < mjj29> hrm, I just got an email saying that gbib migrated to testing
08:42 < mjj29> but I clearly have an RC bug filed against it
08:42 < mjj29> I filed it
08:43 < nenolod> winnie, if so, i haven't been able to get in touch with the author of lilo yet to see what he thinks of the issue. :/
08:43 < weasel> Manoj: indeed that what I expected.  and that's where I looked prior to asking,
08:43 < weasel> Manoj: only I didn't see it.  (it's there now that I look again, thanks)
08:44 < vorlon> Yoe: oh; any chance it's locale-dependent, and one side or the other doesn't know it's Unicode?
08:45 < Yoe> vorlon: probably
08:47 < mrvn> Can ayone explain to me why a raid5 with 6 disks only manages lousy 35MB/s?
08:48 < mrvn> reading
08:48 < mrvn> shouldn't pci allow up to 120MB/s?
08:48 < Yoe> mrvn: because you need to read from all disks at the same time, rather than just from one random disk?
08:48 < mrvn> Yoe: shouldn't be that fragmented
08:49 < TCW> vorlon, any idea about localized systems and the passwd chat? As my system for example is german, the passwd chat is also in german, so the passwd chat does look different. Same with all other languages. Here I use a hack like "passwd program = LC_MESSAGES=C /usr/bin/passwd '%u'", your thoughts?
08:49 < Yoe> mrvn: RAID5 is fragmented by definition, especially if you do a 6-disk RAID6
08:49 < Yoe> eh, s/6$/5/
08:50 < mrvn> The file should be linear on the device. so it should read from a disks with a few gaps.
08:51 < mrvn> I understand that skipping the parity blocks will basically take as long as reading them. But that still leaves a lot more speed than it gets.
08:52 < Yoe> mrvn: eh, no? There are stripes. A file is spread over these stripes.
08:52 < Yoe> If you want to read that file, you need all stripes. That means you need to spin up all disks (if they're spun down), need to position the head, etc
08:53 < Yoe> so you get six (well, five) times the access time
08:53 < mrvn> Yoe: and then it should read from all in parallel.
08:53 < Yoe> well, yeah, in theory
08:53 < Yoe> provided you have parallel data buses
08:53 < mrvn> Each disk can give 40MB/s = 200MB/s, pci allows 120MB/s so that is the bottleneck.
08:54 < mrvn> and I get 1/3 of that.
08:54 < Yoe> but then your one disk is slightly slower because it has a hickup or something, so the RAID subsystem waits for that disk
08:54 < Yoe> and then the second disk does the same
08:54 < Yoe> so there you lose some speed
08:54 < mrvn> Actually some disks are on the onboard chip on the northbridge. They work in parallel with pci.
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08:55 < Yoe> not to mention the fact that you'll have some contention anyway, where the disks need to coordinate with one another to be able to actually send data over the bus
08:55 < mrvn> Yoe: then the read ahead of 8192 should kick in imho.
08:55 < Yoe> I don't think it works that simple
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08:55 < Yoe> is this software raid or hardware raid?
08:55 < mrvn> Yoe: It works awfully bad.
08:55 < mrvn> Yoe: software
08:56 < sgran> is this IDE or SATA or something else?
08:56 < mrvn> SATA
08:56 < mrvn> Running DD on all disks in parallel I get much more.
08:56 < mrvn> So the disks and low level drivers are fine.
08:56 < Yoe> and where's your read-ahead, on the RAID device or on each devices one at a time?
08:56 < mrvn> Yoe: both.
08:56 < Yoe> eh, s/devices/device/
08:57  * Yoe <- getting tired
08:57 < Yoe> isn't that, like, extremely stupid?
08:57 < mrvn> Yoe: not really. it gets passed through anyway.
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08:58 < mrvn> Yoe: It is not like a read ahead on the raid device causes a real read on the disks. at least that is my understanding.
08:58 < stockholm> mrvn: do you try to reduce the seeks?
08:58 < mrvn> going by my ear it is not seeking much
08:59 < stockholm> some filesystems have a fragmentation indicator
08:59 < stockholm> xfs, for one
08:59 < vorlon> TCW: the password chat should be in English; the samba packages have been patched specifically to use the C locale when doing password communication, either by PAM or by exec()
09:00 < vorlon> TCW: which version of samba are you using?
09:00 < stockholm> mrvn: do you use iostat to see how the disks are doing?
09:00 < mrvn> Files where written one at a time and never modified. fragmentation should be minimal.
09:00 < mrvn> stockholm: yep. and rsync
09:00 < mrvn> dm-0           9275.80     37103.20         0.00     371032          0
09:00 < mrvn> sdc              31.00     10536.00         0.00     105360          0
09:00 < mrvn> sdd              32.50     10522.40         0.00     105224          0
09:00 < mrvn> sde              32.70     10513.20         0.00     105132          0
09:01 < sgran> I'm taking you've checked the obvious and that the array is not mid-sync or something?
09:01 < mrvn> sgran: sure.
09:01 < stockholm> mrvn: i benchmarked quite a lot in that area and you can have non-continous files even if you write them one at a time
09:02 < stockholm> mrvn: dd with given blocksize (to read) is good 
09:02 < TCW> vorlon, oh? I remember I had an issue there with pre-etch I think, now I have this stuff on sid and doing some research / documentation before I actually try to use those scripts in production... so it may be this does not apply anymore or did never when (*sigh*) I mixed something up again :/
09:03 < stockholm> if you dont go by blocks but files (that you perhaps got with find) you get almost realistic loads
09:03 < vorlon> TCW: pre-etch, the PAM in Debian didn't support localization...
09:03 < stockholm> usually the raid controller broke down and became a bottle neck
09:04 < stockholm> 3ware came out ahead
09:04 < mrvn> stockholm: # dd if=/dev/md2 of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1024
09:04 < stockholm> :-)
09:04 < mrvn> 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB) copied, 26.4401 s, 40.6 MB/s
09:04 < TCW> vorlon, then... no idea, forget that I asked :)
09:04 < stockholm> that is an average disk then
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09:04 < mrvn> and should be 2-3 times that
09:04 < stockholm> mrvn: is it one disk?
09:05 < mrvn> raid5 with 6 disks.
09:05 < stockholm> haha!
09:05 < vorlon> TCW: for that matter, PAM in etch didn't support localization, either.  That doesn't mean that passwd itself couldn't have broken things by being localized, but I had never heard that this was the case
09:05 < stockholm> yes. bad
09:05 < mrvn> And at the start of the disk the disk does 80MB/s each.
09:05 < vorlon> TCW: anyway, the default settings in sid are the correct way to do this (pam passwd change = yes)
09:05 < ssb> mrvn, try with iflag=direct
09:06 < stockholm> mrvn: have you tried concurrent reads (with dd on all of them)?
09:06 < mrvn> I will update to 2.6.25 soon. Lots of raid changes between 2.6.22 and there. Maybe that helps.
09:06 < stockholm> how much do you get out then?
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09:07 < mrvn> stockholm: much better. Like 75+75+30+30+30+30. The first 2 being on the northbridge, the rest pci.
09:07 < TCW> vorlon, but if passwd is invoked within samba and samba is specifically patched to use the C locale, even if passwd would be broken there in some way, it should never trigger the problem, not?
09:07 < stockholm> yes, that looks realistic.
09:08 < stockholm> mrvn: hardware raid controller are doing really poorly at this, too
09:08 < mrvn> I'm pretty sure it is the raid layer that looses the speed.
09:08 < vorlon> TCW: there are other reasons, aside from the locale, why you don't want to invoke passwd from samba
09:08 < vorlon> TCW: related to PAM and infinite loops when you're using bi-directional password syncing
09:09 < stockholm> mrvn: if you can do it without raid that is much better
09:09 < TCW> vorlon, eh? So how does this work? Isn't passwd invoked from within samba?
09:09 < mrvn> stockholm: I wish linux would do read greater than 4K so the lower layers would know how much to read ahead for sure.
09:09 < mrvn> stockholm: too risky.
09:09 < stockholm> mrvn: you tried to tune the readahead kernel parameter?
09:10 < mrvn> stockholm: blockdev --setra
09:10 < stockholm> what does that do?
09:10 < mrvn>               Set readahead to N 512-byte sectors.
09:10 < stockholm> there is an entry in /sys/ for this, too
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09:11 < vorlon> TCW: if you use 'pam password change = yes', which as I said is the current default, it calls pam_chauthtok() directly instead of invoking passwd
09:11 < mrvn> root@storage:/sys/block/sda/queue# cat read_ahead_kb 
09:11 < mrvn> 4096
09:11 < vorlon> TCW: that way you can configure /etc/pam.d/samba and /etc/pam.d/passwd to each do the right thing regarding password syncing, without getting into a loop
09:12 < TCW> vorlon, ah I c! So the passwd chat is not used anymore after all?
09:12 < vorlon> it is
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09:12 < vorlon> because you still have to "chat" with PAM
09:12 < mrvn> stockholm: dm and md devices don't have the queue subdir. But blockdev can set and read the readahead for them too.
09:13 < stockholm> mrvn: 4M is not a lot
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09:13 < stockholm> folks on #linuxfs told me it was better to read more, and said it should be 6M+
09:14 < mrvn> stockholm: One thing I see is that dm-0 gets 10000 transactions per second and then sda gets only 30. So the filesystem reads tons of 4K blocks but the lower level reads bigger chunks. So something is working right.
09:14 < stockholm> ah, nice.
09:14 < stockholm> where do you see the number of transactions?
09:14 < mrvn> stockholm: That is 24M for the raid already.
09:15 < mrvn> or 20M without parity.
09:15 < mrvn> stockholm: iostat
09:15 < stockholm> ah, ok
09:15 < sgran> stockholm: tps in iostat
09:15 < mrvn> md2            8723.05     34892.22         0.00     349620          0
09:15 < mrvn> dm-0           8723.05     34892.22         0.00     349620          0
09:15 < mrvn> sdc              31.64     10088.62         0.00     101088          0
09:16 < mrvn> So somewhere between raid and disks the reads become bigger.
09:16 < stockholm> i did not watch that value.
09:16 < mrvn> Buest guess would be the disks read ahead does work.
09:17 < stockholm> mrvn: and what does the cpu say?
09:17 < mrvn> Cpu(s): 36.2%us, 39.9%sy,  0.0%ni,  0.0%id, 19.3%wa,  0.0%hi,  4.7%si,  0.0%st
09:17 < mrvn> But is is running 2 rsyncs now.
09:17 < stockholm> mrvn: one more thing: if you have a raid over all the drives you slow down to the slowest device.
09:17 < mrvn> stockholm: slowest * (num disks -1)
09:18 < mrvn> theoretically.
09:18 < stockholm> all heads need to be syncronized and the slowest heads ... right
09:18 < stockholm> so dont do raid. :-)
09:18 < mrvn> I need the parity.
09:19 < stockholm> get a thumper from sun with 48 disks and have the redundancy elsewhere :-)
09:19 < mrvn> I would love to have a 100G chunk size for the raid.
09:19 < TCW> vorlon, ok, let's stop at this point. I know enough to figure it out I think. More details will confuse me probably ;) Btw. The last hour I tried to understand "those scripts" on my own again... what exactly made you "blech" (does that mean "to barf"? I asked my dictionary, it does not know "blech" *g*) there? The "patch" is almost finished though... I think...
09:20 < mrvn> i.e. 100G on the first disk, 100G on the second, ... 100G parity, next stripe.
09:20 < Sesse> mrvn: what stops you?
09:20 < stockholm> Sesse: the disks are only 20G? :)
09:20 < mrvn> I think the old raid code can't do partial stripe updates. It would read in the 100G parity to update them.
09:20 < Sesse> oh, the new one cans?
09:20 < Sesse> s/cans/can/
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09:21 < mrvn> Maybe. Have to read the code.
09:21 < mrvn> (or try)
09:21 < vorlon> TCW: "blech" is onomatopoetic for a retching sound
09:21 < mrvn> Would also mean a disk access only has to spin up one disk usualy.
09:21 < stockholm> vorlon: "poetic"? 
09:22 < Sesse> mrvn: you'd always need to spin up the parity disk to update that, no?
09:22 < mrvn> If I don't get the combined speed anyway why striped. :)
09:22 < Sesse> (on a write)
09:22 < TCW> stockholm, lautmalerisch :)
09:22 < mrvn> Sesse: sure. It would be involed in every write but no read. Probably evens out the usage so it doesn#t break down too fast.
09:22 < stockholm> ja. "malerisch" and "bleah" ...
09:23 < Sesse> mrvn: usage means nothing to disk life.
09:23 < Sesse> unless you have some other meaning of "usage" than I do :-)
09:23 < vorlon> TCW: as for what I disliked about it, it was mostly the implications of having to bloat the smb.conf significantly with the many different scripts that have to be configured, as well as concerns about the overall security model of having users do this remotely using the root password as it seems users have in the past been encouraged to do
09:23 < mrvn> Sesse: wear on the platter
09:23 < mrvn> and head
09:24 < Sesse> mrvn: well, if you spin it down and up the life might change. writing/reading on a disk that's already spinning means exactly zero.
09:24 < stockholm> Sesse: did you ever ask your colleges in operations about the details they did not publish about what disk manufacturer was worst? :-)
09:24 < Sesse> (I'd guess life might change for the worse. spinning up/down wears the disk a lot.)
09:24 < Sesse> stockholm: yes :-)
09:24 < Sesse> stockholm: and I bought disks for my server accordingly. *g*
09:24 < mrvn> Sesse: years back I heard one spinn down/up was equivalent to 8h running.
09:24 < stockholm> Sesse: what brand did you bye?
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09:25 < Sesse> stockholm: heh
09:25 < Sesse> stockholm: you think I can tell you that after that confirmation? :-)
09:25 < stockholm> Sesse: you can tell THAT part
09:25 < Sesse> stockholm: no. :-)
09:25 < stockholm> you dont need to tell which brand was worst
09:25 < Sesse> I have no idea which was worst. I asked only what was best.
09:25 < Sesse> and I can tell you neither.
09:26 < stockholm> "blech"
09:26 < stockholm> :-)
09:26 < mrvn> Sesse: was there much of a difference?
09:26 < Sesse> mrvn: dunno
09:26 < stockholm> yes :-)
09:26 < Sesse> I guess I can only point you to "read the paper"
09:26 < stockholm> one brand had like 30% worst then the rest
09:27 < Sesse> all disks die anyway
09:27 < stockholm> two of my notebook disks are in teh process currently
09:28 < TCW> vorlon, so your concerns are a matter of principle.... true, there may be security risks, even if I can't think of one right now. After all there is no diference imho, adding users to a system you need to invoke one / some tools with root privileges, samba is just a another layer above that. And after all, just the trustworthy holy "Windows Domain Administrators" are allowed to issue those commands through samba...
09:29 < mrvn> Sesse: ssd disks might help there. no spinn up/down.
09:29 < stockholm> expensive
09:29 < stockholm> slower perhaps then normal disks
09:29 < vorlon> TCW: there is a difference in security between storing the root password in a samba password database, and not doing so; the on-disk encryption is measurably weaker
09:29 < mrvn> by 2012 it is said to be same price.
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09:34 < TCW> vorlon, hmm.... I have no real idea how the root password is stored within samba, but as smbd it self runs as root, the samba password for root can be another than the real root password afaik, so the security risk there is reduced to a tolerable minimum imho.
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09:41 < TCW> vorlon, but I am in now way an expert there... but I think even if... by all means... security concerns are an issue there, a clear warning "Usage of these scripts may breach the security on this box and may damage your health" and by default commented out the scripts, or a file / note ind /usr/share/doc/samba/ would be an idea
09:41 < TCW> uarg... knots in my fingers :)
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09:42 < liiwi> please do give people enough gun to shoot the whole feet off.
09:42 < liiwi> laser preferred.
09:46 < mrvn> Can we give them enough rope to hang themself? Too easy to aim a laser somewhere else.
09:51 < dondelelcaro> better to pre-emptively shoot them in the face.
09:52 < jordi> mrvn: jesus
09:52 < jordi> it's doing a third test
09:52 < mrvn> jordi: told you it does 8 passes
09:52 < jordi> mrvn: all ok during the first two runs
09:52 < jordi> oh, 8 passes
09:52 < jordi> fantastic :D
09:52 < jordi> might be done when I wake up
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09:53 < mrvn> write 0, read, write 0xaa, read, write 0x55, read, write 0xff, read
09:53 < mrvn> jordi: has the smart output for reallocated sectors changed yet?
09:54 < jordi> blockdev --setra 8192 device
09:54 < jordi> ^I didn't do that
09:54 < jordi> mrvn: let me check
09:55 < TCW> if badblocks / smartctl does not see anything during the first 2 passes, it will hardly find problems in the next 6 passes imho....
09:55 < jordi> mrvn: hm
09:55 < mrvn> Last time i just did a single pass.
09:56 < TCW> some call me "the master of broken disks" and I had never a broken disk which didn't report a proplem in the first pass ;)
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09:56 < Mez> is it me or is the wiki really slow today
09:57 < mrvn> TCW: if it reallocates some on the first pass it might still be fine. But if it finds any more on the second pass that means the blocks a dying fast.
09:57 < jordi> mrvn: Reallocated_Sect_ct didn't change
09:57 < jordi> Raw_Read_Error_Rate did
09:58 < TCW> mrvn, that's why 2 passes are a good idea sometimes
09:58 < mrvn> jordi: changes here all the time too.
09:58 < jordi> ok
09:58 < TCW> jordi, in general this value does rise all the time, no need to worry
09:58 < jordi> good
09:58 < TCW> jordi, not "good", broken by design I'd rather say :)
09:59 < mrvn> jordi: If Reallocated_Sect_ct didn't change then it didn
09:59 < jordi> Seagate™!
09:59 < jordi> :)
09:59 < mrvn> 't find any bad blocks.
09:59 < jordi> mrvn: ok. should I wait for all the passes, or should I start thinking I got a good drive?
09:59 < mrvn> jordi: I wouldn't.
10:00 < jordi> I wouldn't what? :)
10:00 < mrvn> wait, I'm impatient that way.
10:01 < TCW> jordi, but after all... remember smart sucks like hell! Even if smart reports no errors, the drive can be utterly borken or in the next 5 minutes. The "drive failure prediction" is most of the time a myth.
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10:01 < mrvn> TCW: Reallocated_Sect_ct is pretty reliable.
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10:01 < TCW> BUT... that's why we like raid and backups ;)
10:01 < jordi> totally
10:01 < jordi> the purpose of this drive is to do raid1
10:02 < Sesse> well, smart helps with finding dying disks
10:02 < mrvn> the raid1 resync will do another test.
10:02 < Sesse> but abscence of smart warnings does not mean the disk lives.
10:02 < TCW> mrvn, do you remember my last disc where badblocks did find all the time dozens of broken blocks but smartctcl did not notice anything and thought the disk is _absolutely_ fine?
10:02 < mrvn> nor does the reverse means the disk is dying.
10:02 < Sesse> mrvn: it's a pretty good indicator
10:02 < Sesse> but, frisbee time.
10:03 < mrvn> TCW: happens when you had a head cratch the disk.
10:04 < TCW> mrvn, do you imply there something? :)
10:04 < mrvn> TCW: no
10:04 < TCW> mrvn, good :)
10:04 < mrvn> I have a disk here where the last 3G of the disk are broken.
10:05 < jordi> just not using them is fine?
10:06 < mrvn> yep. 100% fine for 150G and then 3G totaly dead.
10:06 < jordi> I had this impression that when you've got a bad block, it'll become an epidemy and nearby sectors will get ill too
10:06 < TCW> mrvn, but don't you think that is at least a bit luck?
10:07 < TCW> jordi, that can happen, but it need not to
10:08 < mrvn> TCW: no. The disk must have got scratched.
10:08 < TCW> mrvn, over 3G of the surface?
10:09 < mrvn> a few zylinders or so
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12:49 < Manoj> ok. so my setools upload seems to be building ok.
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12:52 < Manoj> Ha! I gt to use the separating topic branches howto for policycoreutils
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15:24 < paravoid> wow, via's openbook seems cool
15:25 < paravoid> plus it's the first laptop design under a CC license (afaik)
15:26 < peterS> meh ... why does gcj express a nested class as Outer$Inner instead of Outer_Inner?
15:26 < peterS> well, ecj I should say
15:27 < p2-mate> paravoid: except for the fact it's via
15:27 < paravoid> and?
15:27 < paravoid> what's so bad with that?
15:27 < paravoid> and how's e.g. asus better?
15:28 < paravoid> (comparing it to eee)
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15:28 < p2-mate> via chips are crappy IME
15:28 < p2-mate> slow
15:28 < p2-mate> failure prone
15:29 < p2-mate> crappy linux drivers
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15:41 < Mithrandir> peterS: Outer$Inner; isn't that how javac does it too?  At least I think it used to.
15:42 < Mithrandir> paravoid: asus isn't a chipset manufacturer.
15:42 < peterS> Mithrandir: subversion's java bindings seem to expect Outer_Inner
15:42 < peterS> I don't know Java, I am shooting in the dark here
15:42 < peterS> I think I may have to install some f'in non-free JDK to see what it does
15:43 < paravoid> Mithrandir: obviously, I was comparing eee to openbook though
15:43 < paravoid> both are laptops
15:43 < paravoid> mini-laptops that is
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16:05 < man-di> peterS: because that is what the JLS specifies
16:06 < man-di> peterS: JLS = Java language specification
16:06 < peterS> man-di: I've figured out that Sun javah builds "Inner_Outer.h" but GNU Classpath javah builds "Inner$Outer.h".  is that part of the JLS?
16:07 < man-di> peterS: ah. you mean header files, not internal class names
16:07 < peterS> both Sun and gcj javac produce "Inner$Outer.class", which I didn't realise at first
16:07 < man-di> peterS: afaik thats not part of JLS
16:07 < peterS> I thought the problem was with both .class and .h, but it is only with .h
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17:55 < MadCoder> xerakko: this has nothing to do with cmake
17:55 < MadCoder> but with the glibc
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18:17 < jordi> mrvn: all passes done, 0 bad blocks, smartctl unchanged
18:17 < mrvn> sounds like the disk is ok.
18:18 < jordi> good
18:18 < jordi> the mobo isn't :P
18:19 < mrvn> Did you test it on a different board?
18:20 < mrvn> The disk could still get the address wrong. Write/Read data from the wrong block consistently.
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18:26 < jordi> mrvn: no
18:27 < jordi> i think the motherboard was tested with other disks too, with also bad results
18:28 < mrvn> hopefully with different cables.
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19:59 < noshadow> hmpf, new policy requesting spaces, dpkg-dev using ,
20:00 < Corsac> mh ?
20:01 < noshadow> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS
20:02 < Corsac> mh ok
20:02 < noshadow> no, make the package policy complient or make it working with dpkg-buildpackage....?
20:03 < noshadow> s/^no/now/
20:06 < Ganneff> read what russ wrote on d-d-a
20:07 < noshadow> Ganneff: that does not mention that conflict.
20:07 < Ganneff> that does mention what you should do.
20:08 < noshadow> Ganneff: that only mentions how policy changed. Not that following policy creates packages that cannot be build with unstable's dpkg-buildpackage...
20:08 < Ganneff> it mentions that many of the changes might not apply before lenny releases
20:08 -!- Shadowcat [shadowcat@80.216.48.53] has joined #debian-devel
20:10 < GyrosGeier> hmm
20:10 < noshadow> "However, if you are making new uploads for lenny for other reasons, bringing those uploads in line with Policy 3.8.0 is certainly fine."
20:12 < noshadow> at least dpkg-buildpackage still seems to work when given no arguments ((and most likely no environment variables).
20:13 < mrvn> Lets not change things shortly after a release. Lets do it shortly before one.
20:14 < weasel> multiarch next
20:15 < mrvn> No. That would be actually usefull
20:15 < adsb-work> The relevant bit of dpkg has a comment that says "# FIXME: This is pending resolution of Debian bug #430649" so one would assume it'll get updated, given that bug was closed in the policy upload...
20:16 < adsb-work> For DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS that is
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20:19 < noshadow> adsb-work: though even that bits are only in parse, not in set.
20:19 < adsb-work> Yeah, spotted that after I said it
20:20 < noshadow> well, one piping through sed then...
20:23 -!- Salz [~salz@dslb-088-070-058-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #debian-devel
20:28 < GyrosGeier> anyone proficient in valgrind who can tell me why it flags a "conditional move or jump depends on uninitialized value" in http://paste.debian.net/5445/ at the "beq-"?
20:28 < mrvn> GyrosGeier: and the source is what?
20:28 < GyrosGeier> boost's intrusive_ptr
20:29 < GyrosGeier> /usr/include/boost/intrusive_ptr.hpp line 78
20:29 < mrvn> paste please
20:29 -!- noshadow [~brl@pcpool09.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de] has quit [Quit: ...]
20:30 < GyrosGeier> http://paste.debian.net/5449/
20:30 < GyrosGeier> rhs.p_ is initialized
20:30 < mrvn> doubtfull
20:30 < GyrosGeier> if it weren't, it'd complain much earlier
20:31 < GyrosGeier> that is what puzzles me
20:31 < GyrosGeier> it complains about the branch
20:31 < GyrosGeier> but not about the loading of values before that
20:31 < GyrosGeier> i.e. that is the very first thing it flags during execution
20:32 < mrvn> maybe it only complains when it influences the code flow.
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20:35 < GyrosGeier> rhs is a default-constructed object, where p_ is zero-initialized
20:37 -!- ettin [~jorda@88.206.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #debian-devel
20:38 < Baby> nyu: ping!
20:40 < GyrosGeier> http://paste.debian.net/5450/ is the default constructor -- 0(r9) is properly initialized
20:41 < GyrosGeier> hmm
20:42 < GyrosGeier> wait
20:42 < GyrosGeier> the operator= seems to be miscompiled
20:42 < GyrosGeier> yuck
20:43 < GyrosGeier> wait
20:43 < GyrosGeier> it isn't
20:45 < GyrosGeier> the object on the stack is properly initialized by the default constructor
20:46 -!- si0ux [~si0ux@201-048-208-161.static.ctbctelecom.com.br] has joined #debian-devel
20:51 < liw> the current weekly edition of lwn.net is comparing various distributions on the same laptop... debian doesn't do very well, but also not badly; opensolaris doesn't do particularly well: no suspend, no hibernate, no cpufreq, no dns
20:51 < liw> "On the 2510p, the OpenSolaris CD brought up GRUB, but did not succeed in booting into the installer." -- hah
20:52 < mrvn> what doesn't debian have?
20:53 -!- mvo [~egon@p54A64301.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #debian-devel
20:53 < zumbi_> liw: which one is the best?
20:53 < liw> zumbi_, haven't finished the article yet
20:54 < stockholm> liw: i felt debian did more on the bad side
20:55 < stockholm> liw: but i guess since we (rightly) are reluctant to madly patch the kernel there is not much more that we can do about it (is there?)
20:55 -!- zumbi_ is now known as zumbi
20:55 < liw> opensuse beta: "The Software may contain an automatic disabling mechanism that prevents its use after a certain period of time, so You should back up Your system and take other measures to prevent any loss of files or data."
20:55 < stockholm> crazy, really
20:56 < liw> stockholm, I'm not sure what debian could do better with laptops... but it'd be a good topic to discuss at a bof in debconf, I'm sure
20:56 < stockholm> yes
20:56 < stockholm> the external graphics card thing is one
20:56 < pusling> and there is also not much to do about the tester isn't noticing stuff like "encrypted partitions" in the installer
20:56 < stockholm> i dont even know how to fix that properly
20:57 < liw> pusling, sure there is, debian can make encrypted partitions the default :)
20:57 < pusling> haha.
20:57 < mrvn> liw: then they complain it is so slow
20:57 < stockholm> pusling: he just skipped everything that was not dead-easy
20:57 < nyu> Baby: ?
20:57 < mrvn> and you always have to enter a password on boot
20:58 < stockholm> pusling: i think d-i's decision to hide that option from the default path is the right one
20:58 < mrvn> stockholm: The chicken way of installing debian. Put a corn on the enter key.
20:58 < nyu> liw: err, is that about opensuse serious?
20:58 < mrvn> stockholm: aeh? They do? Etch had it plain in view.
20:58 < stockholm> and then my wife had a chicken as a child that was half blind and never hit the corn (only by chance)
20:58 < liw> nyu, I have not verified it, but the article makes it sound serious
20:59 < nyu> liw: what is the context of that?
20:59 < mrvn> Maybe it could prefer encryption when it detects a laptop.
20:59 < liw> nyu, happens during the installation, as far as I know
20:59 < stockholm> mrvn: i installed encrypted partitions with d-i and you have to choose the right non-standard options at the right time.
21:00 < plopix> http://www.first-colo.de/?show=products claims that debian is a partner organisation
21:00 < stockholm> nyu: its part of the eula i think
21:00 < pusling> stockholm: isn't that about most choices in the installer? "you have to choose the right non-standard option at the right time" ?
21:00 < nyu> omg
21:00 < pusling> including languages and tasks
21:00 < mrvn> stockholm: but you have a list of 4 or 5 partition schemes. You just have to read.
21:00 < stockholm> pusling: yes, and that is exactly what he did not test
21:01 < stockholm> he picked the ones that were prominently displayed
21:01 < mrvn> It is not like you have to cancle, lower the debconf value and go back or something.
21:01 < liw> stockholm, actually, given the number of laptops at debconf, debian could do worse than have a "let's make suspend/hibernate work for everyone" party...
21:01 < stockholm> liw: true. that would be very good
21:01 < mrvn> What I'm missing in D-I is encryptfs support.
21:04 < liw> actually, this article reminds me of an old idea of mine: make "movies" of the installation of various operating systems, or releases of them; kvm and some suitable recording tool should make that reasonably easy
21:05 < liw> I'm sure they'd be instant bittorrent hits
21:05 < mrvn> liw: I had a virtual installation on my website. You could click through all the menus.
21:08 < mrvn> liw: you could probably do a lot with dvd menus too.
21:08 < mrvn> like the language chooser :)
21:12 < zumbi> liw: so, which distro was the best one?
21:12 < stockholm> zumbi: fendora
21:12 < stockholm> and then ubuntu
21:13 < liw> zumbi, fedora 9, with ubuntu 8.04 pretty much eqwual
21:13 < stockholm> ubuntu sucked on the newer notebook because it was a power hog
21:13 < stockholm> the 3d stuff kept the graphics card busy
21:14 < zumbi> fedora 9 does ps3 better that ubuntu
21:14 < jcristau> that's what you get for using compiz
21:14 < liw> stockholm, er, the table shows 10.1 Watts for fedora 9, after tweaks, and 10.1 Watts for Ubuntu, before tweaks...
21:14 < stockholm> right
21:14 < stockholm> liw: i am citing from memory
21:14 < liw> stockholm, you need to run memtest :)
21:15 < stockholm> liw: then why didnt ubuntu come out on top?
21:15 < zumbi> or powertop
21:15 < liw> stockholm, fewer problems I thought
21:15 < stockholm> powertop is not ported to my arch yet :-)
21:15 < liw> the article doesn't really put the distros in a clear order
21:15 < zumbi> also fedora does multiarch
21:16 < stockholm> liw: he does list preferences at the end
21:16 < stockholm> biarch :-)
21:16 < blarson> Time to install for a MS product should include getting a lawyer to understand the EULA.
21:17 < liw> stockholm, without putting them in a clear order, yes
21:17 < zumbi> liw: does it says something about YDL?
21:17 < liw> zumbi, no
21:17 < zumbi> yum is somehow nice
21:19 < mrvn> I have 38W with the disk spun down.
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21:19 < nyu> what's the default name for the root filesystem in a debian LVM install?
21:20 < nyu> (the one you'd use as root= linux boot param)
21:20 < liw> $(hostname)-root I think
21:21 < nyu> 13:04 < liw> actually, this article reminds me of an old idea of mine: make "movies" of the installation of various operating systems, or releases of them;
21:21 < nyu> liw: like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Win32-loader.ogg ? :-)
21:21 < liw> nyu, possibly
21:22 < liw> yeah, something like that
21:23 < liw> it'd be nice to have one for, say, the 1.1 installer, the 2.0 installer, 3.0 installer, and 4.0 installer, just to see how much things have changed
21:23 < liw> is there a location for really old debian installer isos?
21:24 < nyu> archive.debian.org?
21:24 < maks> nyu: root=/dev/mapper/vg-lv not the symlink
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21:25 < liw> nyu, hm, can't find ISOs
21:26 < liw> just floppy images :)
21:26 < nyu> maks: yep, that works.  thanks
21:26 < liw> did we even release ISOs ten years ago?
21:26 < broonie> Yes.
21:26 < nyu> before d-i, ISOs were just an add-on to make installs less network-painful
21:27 < nyu> since the whole thing fit in a few floppies
21:27 < broonie> I used to buy them from Sledge.
21:27 < ron> hamm had ISOs, but no one had bandwidth to download them
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21:28 < liw> bdale! tell me you've archived all Debian release ISOs somewhere
21:30 -!- streuner [~streuner@p54A5C220.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
21:30 < Baby> nyu: I'm uploading rc2 to experimental
21:30 < nyu> Baby: okie
21:30 < algernon> I think we may have a few slink ISOs here at work
21:30 < algernon> I found a potato one the other day
21:30 < zumbi> i was wondering who was the oldest maintainer in debian
21:31 < liw> algernon, would you be willing to let me have copies?
21:31 < algernon> liw: if I find them again, sure
21:31 < liw> algernon, thanks
21:31 < mrvn> zumbi: oldest or longest?
21:31  * broonie should have hamm and slink somewhere, though probably not teh official CDs.
21:31 < zumbi> oldest would be ian?
21:31 < zumbi> longest?
21:32 < broonie> liw: I'd suggest asking Sledge.
21:32 < mrvn> zumbi: being dd longest or having been born first?
21:32 < zumbi> being dd longest
21:32 < liw> broonie, I could live with unofficial ones; I've already asked Sledge several tens of seconds ago, but the lazy bugger isn't responding
21:33 < broonie> I'll try to have a look when I get home and ping you if I find them - I've got a horrible feelig I may have thrown them out.
21:33 < zumbi> mrvn: but yes, now, i got two questions :-)
21:33 < liw> broonie, thanks
21:35 < zumbi> mrvn: somebody is telling me that eldest in age would be a woman, Susan Springfield or similar (born on the 60's)
21:35 < buxy> zumbi: it could be liw
21:35 < ana> zumbi: well, i would like it as oldest and active...
21:35 < buxy> or bdale
21:35 < buxy> bdale:x:801:800:Bdale Garbee,KBOG,,,:/home/bdale:/bin/bash
21:36 < zumbi> buxy: liw in age or dd longest
21:36 < liw> I'm nowhere near the oldest (time since birth), tallest (head to feet), or most senior (time since became DD) DD
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21:37 < buxy> I guess the LDAP got created sometimes afterwards and the numbering of accounts is not significant at the beginning
21:37  * ron wonders if liw is still in the running for wisest ...
21:37 < algernon> liw: Only found woody r1 so far
21:37 < zumbi> liw: what year where you born?
21:38 < liw> zumbi, why do you want to know?
21:38 < zumbi> curious
21:38 < ana> zumbi: that is kind of a impolite question in a public forum...
21:38  * algernon goes and checks the backup servers.
21:38 < liable> there is, i havent ever used it though
21:38 < zumbi> sorry
21:38 < liable> echan
21:39 < zumbi> nevermind then.. i was just thinking on the break age for computing (did i said that right?)
21:40 < liw> zumbi, when I was born, we hadn't gotten around to setting the start of the epoch yet, so it's rather impossible to say when it was, but I have distinct memories of having to clean up dinosaur crap from the back yard
21:40 < ron> zumbi: you could divide it up by people who know things about serial ports and people who don't ;)
21:41 < algernon> that wouldn't be entirely accurate, methinks
21:41 < nyu> what is a port
21:41 < liw> almost everything I've learned about serial ports, I've learned since 2001
21:41 -!- ettin_ [~jorda@122.206.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #debian-devel
21:41 < algernon> eg, I know quite a lot about those, as I had the misfortune to work with them extensively, yet, I consider myself fairly young (not even 3 decades yet)
21:42 -!- manphiz [~dxy@218.244.247.198] has joined #debian-devel
21:42 < ron> people who've owned floppies that were actually floppy perhaps
21:43 -!- ettin [~jorda@88.206.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:43 < algernon> liw: is potato netinst iso good enough?
21:44 < ron> bonus points if they were 8" or more
21:44 < zumbi> i know some people that did computing with some papers filled with holes
21:44 < liw> algernon, it would need access to a mirror, which is awkward... I'll take it, if that's what you have, but I'll continue to look for a whole CD
21:45 < liw> algernon, what's a good way for you to transfer it to me? can you put on http?
21:45 < algernon> liw: still looking, about 2% througy the CD pack here =)
21:45 < liw> :)
21:45 < algernon> liw: yup, http will work.
21:45 < liw> algernon, cool, http is the simplest for me :)
21:46 < ron> zumbi: yeah, even downloading hamm ISOs was quicker than marking up cards, mailing them off, and waiting for your printout to get mailed back to know if it worked or not
21:46 < Rhonda> jcristau: Sorry, my bad. Closed the two bugs again, marillat d-multimedia weirdnesses. %-/
21:46 < jcristau> Rhonda: yeah i figured :)
21:47 -!- ocsi [ocsi@82.131.234.53.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #debian-devel
21:47 < ocsi> hi
21:48 < ocsi> I've tried to submit an ssh key to change@db.debian.org and keeps telling me
21:48 < ocsi> ==> Message Error: Submitted SSH Key known to be bad and insecure, processing halted, NOTHING MODIFIED AT ALL
21:48 < ocsi> but I think my key is not insecure
21:48 -!- manphiz [~dxy@218.244.247.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:48 < Rhonda> What kind of key do you use? rsa-Key, hopefully? And generated with the new openssl?
21:48 < Ganneff> you think wrong
21:48 < jcristau> ocsi: you think wrong, then
21:49 -!- manphiz [~dxy@218.244.247.198] has joined #debian-devel
21:49 < kaol> ocsi: what does ssh-vulnkey say about the key?
21:49 < ocsi> I've tried it with 2 keys
21:49 < Rhonda> rsa?
21:49 < Ganneff> generate a new rsa key, on a system withupdated libssl. and it will work.
21:50 < ocsi> one old (rsa) is generated before the critical date
21:50 < ocsi> the other is a new (rsa) keys just generated, on updated testing
21:50 < Rhonda> ocsi: Do you use testing-security? Otherwise your testing is still volunerable.
21:51 < Rhonda> s/volun/vuln/
21:51 < ocsi> deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main
21:51 -!- yaegashi [~yaegashi@35.14.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:51 < Rhonda> dpkg -l openssl?
21:51 < Ganneff> libssl0.9.8 is more interesting
21:51 -!- yaegashi [~yaegashi@35.14.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp] has joined #debian-devel
21:52 < Rhonda> Ganneff: I hope there was a tight versioned depends introduced due to that.
21:52 < ocsi> 0.9.8g-3 hm
21:52 < Ganneff> Rhonda: haha
21:52 < Ganneff> no, wasnt
21:52 < Rhonda> ocsi: That's definitely not "updated"
21:52 -!- mrvn [~Goswin@HSI-KBW-085-216-073-182.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: reboot]
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21:53 < ocsi> I think I've messed up something
21:54 < liw> algernon, broonie: I need to leave now, please e-mail me if you have something to share (liw@liw.fi)
21:54 < algernon> liw: ok
21:54 -!- yaegashi [~yaegashi@35.14.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:54 < ocsi> thanks for the help
21:55 < ocsi> I've upgraded 3 boxes, and forgot openssl on my one
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22:01  * ocsi is hoping that the one who come up with changing that rng got larted too
22:02 < algernon> tehehe.
22:02  * Rhonda larts ocsi
22:02 < algernon> liw: I quite possibly have hamm, slink & potato at home. my brother is verifying the cds right now :)
22:07 < nyu> villager: is the "ia32-libs symlink hack" safe for etch?
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22:43 < the-me> aurel32, thanks for the binnmu against sbnc but it would be nice if you could just ping me before that (the upload was ready, just no time because of an accident..)
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23:02 < Rhonda> siretart: You lagg, I already closed the bug. :)
23:02 < siretart> Rhonda: grr
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23:08 < buxy> the-me: binnmu are not worth informing the maintainer in most cases, just do your upload as if no binnmu happened
23:08  * GyrosGeier would hate being notified of binnmus
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23:20 < aurel32> the-me: I haven't done any NMU recently
23:22 < noshadow> how can something reach state "failed" in the build log database without there being a log? (in other words: how do I find out what the problem is)?
23:23 < dato> aurel32: binNMU
23:23 < aurel32> oh I have read too quickly
23:24 < aurel32> anyway I haven't scheduled a binNMU for a long time
23:24 < aurel32> the-me: probably done by the release team, not me
23:24 < aurel32> the-me: and in anycase, I don't see why you should be informed about that
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23:30 < _rene_> lool: ping?
23:30 < _rene_> lool: any idea about #484758?
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00:41 < noshadow> uh, oh, I've looked at qt code again. When will someone buy trolltech some introductory books about C++?
00:41 < dato> I'm curious, what did they do?
00:42 < noshadow> this time using & on casted stuff.
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00:43 < moray> I assume he means the introductory books would make them realise that using C++ is a bad idea
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00:43 < bdefreese> heh
00:43 < noshadow> Last time using const for non-const functions and saying it is a gcc bug that things get optimized away. Or casing char arrays to floats last but one time...
00:43  * moray spent some time earlier today trying to make someone's C++ compile before giving up...
00:43 < moray> (which worked with a previous toolchain)
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00:45 < noshadow> my guess is that trolltech has some large try&error facility. Because admitingly few qt programs crash all the time when run on i386 or very similar architectures...
00:47 < noshadow> s/few/only few/
00:47 < ron> moray: maybe the books will at least make them realise they aren't cut out for it ...
00:48 < pusling> noshadow: one day, I should collect all your qt rants to a nice blog post on planet kde ;)
00:49 < ron> they could MOC him wittily
00:50  * pusling metaobjectcompiles ron 
00:51 < noshadow> ron: if moc runs. The const iterators caused moc to do an endless loop when doing specific regexpes...
00:52 < ron> How does I has templates?
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01:18 < bdale> buxy: I have the lowest uid because I'm the one who installed Debian on the original master.debian.org ... there were 25-30 other people in the project before I joined, I think.
01:19 < bdale> buxy: certainly including IanM, IanJ, and Bruce
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01:22 < GyrosGeier> if anyone is interested in archaeology:
01:22 < GyrosGeier> http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4224797 (Debian slink i386), http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4224806 (Debian hamm m68k), http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4224808 (Debian hamm source), http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4191209 (Debian rex source + i386)
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01:23 < GyrosGeier> BTW, it is awesome how well slink works on modern hardware
01:24 < GyrosGeier> the only trouble I had was the lack of network drivers for nVidia GigE chipsets, and the lack of ssh
01:24 < bremner> GyrosGeier: no problems with DSA key generation then
01:29 < ron> bremner: probably plenty of other interesting exploits to fill that small gap
01:30 < GyrosGeier> well
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01:31 < GyrosGeier> the lack of network drivers sort of makes up for it
01:31  * bremner proposes new "secure debian" without network drivers
01:31 < bdefreese> heh
01:32 < Mithrandir> GyrosGeier: that's just a small compile away.  If the compiler works with current kernels, that is.
01:32 < ron> didn't ms already make that joke in getting NT "orange book" or whatever it is, listed?
01:33 < GyrosGeier> Mithrandir, the problem is that you need the network to get fresh kernel sources
01:33 < ron> GyrosGeier: that doesn't date it too badly...  I believe current Centos doesn't support certain GigE chips we do now either
01:33 < Mithrandir> GyrosGeier: CD.
01:34 < ron> serial cable ftw \o/
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01:35 < GyrosGeier> yuck
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01:36  * GyrosGeier remembers getting kernel sources through tar over netcat over slip over 14,400 baud modem
01:37 < algernon> I did my slink->potato upgrade by bringing home debs one at a time on 3 1.44Mb floppies
01:37 < algernon> copied them to my disk, and when I brought all home, I did a dpkg -i
01:38 < murb> i was lucky, college had a 64k leased line. problem workstations had 4mb of ram and no local disk, solution smb mount sunsite and tar cMf :-)
01:38 < murb> (yes floppies must have been far mnore reliable back then)
01:39  * algernon still has the very first box of floppies he bought in 1991
01:39 < algernon> 1 out of 10 works even now
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01:40 < algernon> my very first CDs do not, though, which is kinda sad.
01:41  * GyrosGeier paid 20 DEM per CD back then -- and they still work
01:41 < moray> I still have lots of 5 1/4" floppies, though I fear they're probably decayed by now
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02:54 < jordi> wow
02:54 < jordi> this upgrade ended in a total mess
02:54 < jordi> Can't locate File/Copy.pm in @INC and so on
02:54 < jordi> and apt can't do anything now
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02:58 < jordi> nice, perl-modules is halfinstalled at 5.10 and perl-base is 5.8
02:58 < pusling> dpkg -i ?
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03:01 < jordi> trying
03:01 < jordi> it's bombing a bit though
03:01 < jordi> anyway, I wanted to see if keeping the situation was worth it, in case it's provoked by some missing predepend or whatever
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03:03 < jordi> ah, I need to install a few modules by hand too
03:03 < jordi> gettext, iconv...
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03:09 < buxy> jordi: what cause the first failure?
03:10 < buxy> was it update-alternatives failing in a preinst?
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04:40 < eigood> I wish dpkg-source supported jars
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04:41 < suihkulokki> eigood: you sound like clints blog
04:42 < eigood> I'm insulted
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04:48 < lool> _rene_: We suspect the changes to x11/gdkwindow
04:48 < lool> _rene_: It's 64-bits specific
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05:03 < kov> is there an easy way for me to get the changelogs for all packages in unstable without resorting to downloading all the packages or crawling packages.debian.org?
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05:03 < mrvn> ask someone with shell access to p.d.o to give you a tar
05:08 < kov> mrvn: great, I am a DD myself, so I guess I'll be able to get that tar =) thanks
05:08 < adsb> It's on a restricted box iirc
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05:10 < kov> adsb: I found them at /home/org/lintian.debian.org/ on p.d.o
05:10 < kov> might be a mirror
05:11 < adsb> Fair enough
05:11 < adsb> Ah... overload of p.d.o I think :)
05:11 < KiBi> :)
05:11 < adsb> lintian.d.o == planet/people.d.o == gluck
05:12 < adsb> I assumed mrvn meant packages.d.o which is puccini and restricted
05:12 < kov> some of them are unreadable, though: tar: grub2-splashimages/debfiles/changelog: Cannot open: Permission denied
05:14 < kov> weird, because it is rw----r--
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05:17 < sam> with rw----r-- if you're in the group, you're screwed
05:17 < blarson> kov: You must be in the group not allowed to read it.
05:17 < sam> welcome to Unix :)
05:17 < kov> oh, I didn't know that
05:17 < _rene_> lool: want it reassigned then?
05:17 < kov> thanks sam, blarson
05:18 < kov> so I guess I'll just get those by hand
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05:24 < michi> is pere here sometimes?
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05:25 < KiBi> michi: Not that I know.
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05:26 < michi> KiBi: thanks
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05:41 < adsb> nickserv says not since Christmas
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05:52 < lool> _rene_: we have a bug for this already
05:52 < lool> _rene_: I don't care either way
05:52 < lool> _rene_: #484580
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06:06 < jaldhar> whats going on with libcurl in sid?
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06:09 < paulproteus> jaldhar, I don't know, but I find pbuilder can't properly install it when it is part of the build-dependencies for a package I'm building.
06:10 < paulproteus> It seems to install fine outside of pbuilder, though, which confuses me.
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06:13 < paulproteus> libcurl3 in particular, that is.
06:14 < jaldhar> paulproteus: that's the exact problem I'm having.  I don't understand why either.
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06:15 < jaldhar> paulproteus: for now my workaround is a C hook that stops the build and then I manually install it in the chroot
06:16 < paulproteus> Well that's silly.
06:16 < paulproteus> (-;
06:16 < paulproteus> I don't know if pbuilder is to blame, or if libcurl3 is to blame.
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06:21 < KiBi> What's the actual error?
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06:27 < jaldhar> KiBi: it says:
06:27 < jaldhar> pbuilder-satisfydepends-dummy depends on libcurl3-openssl-dev; however:
06:27 < jaldhar>   Package libcurl3-openssl-dev is not installed.
06:27 < jaldhar> doesn't say why
06:28 < KiBi> The Provides doesn't work or something, I guess.
06:28 < KiBi> (libcurl4-openssl-dev)
06:29 < mentor> Try to install libcurl3-openssl-dev
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06:33 < KiBi> Hm? 4 is installed already. What's your point?
06:33 < KiBi> Having an idea of that particular package FTBFSing /might/ help reproduce the actual problem, too.
06:34 < _rene_> lool: ok
06:35 < _rene_> lool: thanks
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06:36 < jaldhar> Oops didn't notice this.
06:36 < jaldhar> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
06:36 < jaldhar>   libcurl3: Depends: libc-ares1 which is a virtual package.
06:36 < KiBi> ahahah
06:36 < KiBi> libc-ares.
06:37 < Sesse> you know, nobody c-ares
06:38 < jaldhar> ok there is already a bug about it: #484790
06:38 < paulproteus> jaldhar, The thing is, that's an arch-dependent package, on an arch where libc-ares1 isn't relevant.
06:38 < paulproteus> Oh, that's nice to see.
06:39 < Sesse> I feel guilty about this
06:39 < jaldhar> paulproteus: yep thats why it is RC
06:39 < Sesse> I committed the code that caused the soname bump :-)
06:39 < paulproteus> Sesse, Maybe you should NMU libcurl3!
06:39 < Sesse> paulproteus: maybe not
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06:43 < |Brad|> Does anyone know where the source for http://buildd.debian.org/~jeroen/status/ is hiding? (The 'hg clone' instruction at the bottom doesn't seem to work.)
06:47 < KiBi> |Brad|: static-http://experimental.ftbfs.de/new/
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06:48 < |Brad|> KiBi: Thanks.
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07:11 < ari> what's that less option to show colors that i always forget
07:13 < KiBi> -r
07:13 < KiBi> (or -R)
07:13 < ari> ah yes
07:13 < moray> hm, you just made me notice that less --help automatically views the help in less, which seems evil
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07:14 < ari> you can pipe it through more
07:14 < moray> ari: well, I guess it's a real use-case for a pointless cat
07:14 < nickr> all cats are pointless
07:14 < ari> if you don't know how to use less, how can you pipe less --help to it
07:14 < moray> "less --help | cat" to avoid the silliness when you just want it in your terminal
07:14 < seanius> moray: i guess you could say that's *less* helpful
07:15 < seanius> bah dum <crash>
07:15 < sam> and man man uses man!
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07:16 < nickr> oh man oh man
07:16 < KiBi> (w)oh man (w)oh man
07:16 < moray> sam: man blah always does that though, whereas this behaviour makes blah --help behave magically differently for less
07:16 < seanius> which command gives you the path of the program you're calling?
07:17 < KiBi> which?
07:17 < KiBi> :)
07:17 < fEnIo> type?
07:17  * seanius guesses the non-american's don't get the abbot and costello :)
07:17 < ari> moray: wait what
07:17 < seanius> and who can say what users are logged on?
07:18 < moray> ari: I'm waiting
07:18 < fEnIo> guestion mark is useless then ;P
07:18 < vorlon> nickr: actually, there are quite a few cats in the world that are pointed
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07:18 < ari> lolless
07:18 < nickr> vorlon: they aren't very sharp though
07:18 < vorlon> heh
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07:23 < moray> ari: I'm still waiting (well, not really)
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07:27 < ari> you're not getting any tips
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07:45 < vorlon> hrm; bts mail delays today?
07:45 < vorlon> dondelelcaro: ?
07:45 < dondelelcaro> hrm... let me check
07:46 < dondelelcaro> ugh. looks like spamscan is having issues
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07:46 < dondelelcaro> restarted
07:47 < vorlon> cheers
07:47 < dondelelcaro> there's some sort of weird deadlock that has been being triggered in that code, and we haven't changed anything
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08:24 < helix> how the fuck do you delete a raid0 device in d-i?
08:25 < nyu> rm -f /dev/raid0
08:25 < helix> if you can't get a terminal?
08:25 < helix> (alternatively, how do you get a terminal if you're doing it over a kvm that sucks?)
08:25 < nyu> ssh? :-)
08:26 < helix> assuming no ssh access :|
08:26 < mrvn> cancel, select shell from the menu
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08:27 < stockholm> helix: what part sucks about the kvm?
08:27 < stockholm> one of those elom things from sun? impi? java console?
08:28 < stockholm> ipmi
08:28 < helix> i don't know, the keyboard emulation makes it zoom through menus like you've hit enter a bunch fo times
08:28 < stockholm> ouch
08:28 < dondelelcaro> vorlon: it's down to 56k from 92k mails now
08:28 < stockholm> helix: i feel your pain
08:28 < helix> well, I don't want empathy, I want a solution :)
08:28 < stockholm> one keypress at a time
08:28 < helix> it just keeps telling me it can't delete the multidisk device
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08:30 < helix> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-440899.html
08:31  * helix cries
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08:38 < stockholm> after i restart ntp on a server i get tons of these in syslog:
08:38 < stockholm> ntpd[31974]: sendto(89.149.209.134) (fd=-1): Bad file descriptor
08:38 < stockholm> aparently ntp is not dying
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08:39 < stockholm> because this goes on for quite a while already
08:39 < stockholm> what can be the reason for this?
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08:39 < ron> or the socket isn't closed properly and you have to wait for it to timeout before rebinding to it?
08:39 < stockholm> the iptables rules are sane and the same as on an other box where i dont get these messages
08:40 < stockholm> i will check that
08:42 < vorlon> "(fd=-1): Bad file descriptor" has nothing to do with firewalls, it has to do with the process failing to handle an error condition somewhere
08:43 < vorlon> "-1" is /always/ a bad file descriptor; ntp should've done something more sensible when this happened, instead of subsequently trying to use the socket and then spitting out a "duh" error message when this fails
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08:45 < vorlon> so it may have been a race condition wrt binding to the local port due to the previous server process still having state there
08:45 < vorlon> but it's not going to go away by waiting on that ntpd instance, that process is already beyond-hosed
08:46  * helix detects concurrency issues in your face
08:46 < ron> if they don't properly check for opening the socket, there are few reasons to believe they properly shut it down either ;)
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08:54 < stockholm> vorlon: on the same machine i get funny messages from syslog-ng
08:54 < stockholm> syslog-ng[1553]: EOF occurred while idle; fd='6'
08:54 < stockholm> and 
08:55 < stockholm> syslog-ng[1553]: Connection broken; time_reopen='10'
08:55 < stockholm> can the local tcp/ip stack cause this somehow?
08:56 < stockholm> syslog-ng is resistant to debugging
08:56 < vorlon> um... sure, but that wouldn't normally be my first guess?
08:56 < vorlon> unless you're running a Krazy Kernel
08:57 < stockholm> vorlon: its etch's 2.6.18
08:57 < stockholm> not crazy
08:58 < vorlon> then I don't think you're hitting a tcp/ip stack bug that no one else has reported...
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08:59 < stockholm> vorlon: i would rather guess that i hit a kernel knob in proc or sys by accident
09:00 < stockholm> because both problems (ntp and syslog-ng) are just on this machine, with more machines with very similar configuration not having that problem
09:00 < vorlon> have you killed the ntpd process yet and tried to restart it cleanly?
09:00 < mrvn> and wait 2 minutes inbetween
09:01 < vorlon> mrvn: no need for that here, we already know that the current ntp process failed to correctly bind to the port and we've spent much longer than 2 minutes here already, not-solving the problem
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09:03 < mrvn> and then there was an ex X. sig 11.
09:06 < stockholm> there WAS a second ntp process there! where did that come from? duh.
09:06 < stockholm> thanks for your time.
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09:20 < stockholm> strange that killall did not manage to kill both processes.
09:20 < stockholm> kill with both numeric PIDs helped
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09:34 < micah> stockholm: pkill is better... especially because on some (non-debian) systems 'killall' literally kills all processes
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09:35 < mrvn> micah: that is called killall5
09:35 < micah> not in solaris
09:36 < seanius> yeah really
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09:36  * seanius had to learn that the hard way, as i imagine many others have too
09:36 < idnar> hee hee
09:36 < KiBi> :]
09:36 < vorlon> s/non-debian/non-Linux/
09:36 < seanius> similarly, i believe "reboot" will give you surprises on some systems
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09:37 < seanius> vorlon: you might have that problem on debian kfreebsd too
09:37 < idnar> Under older sysvinit releases , reboot and halt should never be called directly. From release 2.74 on halt and reboot invoke shutdown(8) if the system is not in runlevel 0 or 6. This means  that if  halt or reboot cannot find out the current runlevel (for example, when /var/run/utmp hasn’t been initialized correctly) shutdown will be called, which might not be what you want.  Use the -f flag if you want to do a hard halt or reboot.
09:37 < idnar> heh
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09:38 < vorlon> seanius: that's not inconsistent with what I sed
09:39 < seanius> nyuk nyuk
09:39 < seanius> what you sed
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09:44 < KiBi> I can't grawk what you sed.
09:46 < ron> Daedalus sed don't fly too close to solaris
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09:58 < Clint> does grub do lvm yet?
09:58 < mrvn> only if the LV is on a single PE.
09:58 < mrvn> and it might be grub2
09:58 < Clint> a single PV?
09:58 < mrvn> aeh, yes.
09:59 < peterS> should I take it as a bad sign when I asked my upstream to help with a build issue with gcj and they were all like AAAAAUGHH, GCJ, RUN AWAAAAAY
09:59 < Clint> can anyone answer that more authoritatively than mrvn?
09:59 < mrvn> Clint: it is not a good idea to have /etc/lvm on lvm. So you should have some non lvm device anyway.
10:01 < peterS> what?  don't the initrd generators already account for root on lvm?  I think where to put /etc/lvm is a solved problem.
10:02 < mrvn> peterS: the problem are the backup files if you ever screw up your metadata.
10:03 < mrvn> One can link it to /boot if that is outside lvm or keep / outside.
10:03 < mrvn> Clint: go with grub2 for lvm.
10:05  * Clint nods.
10:05 < mrvn> You need: /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/lvm.mod 
10:10 < mrvn> Shouldn't a lenny install come with grub2?
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10:16 < mvz> mrvn: grub2 it not used by default, afaics
10:18 < mvz> mrvn: #470894
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12:19 < ron> wow.  sourceforge just gets more and more clueless by the day ...
12:19 < ron> now they spam me with html mail loaded with doubleclick tracers
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12:27  * GyrosGeier just got mail from a domaingrabber whether I want to buy the .com to match my .org and .net
12:32 < Manoj> So, I have a change from someone who adds a ring buffer to a selinux wrapper I wrote to run stuff with a different security context. Unfortunately, it is clever code, re-using pointers and doing nifty pointer math, which means I must now run through a hole bunch of scenarios to make sure the code brhaves correctly in all cases
12:32 < Manoj> Why do people want to be quite so fiendishly clever?
12:34 < Manoj> I'm actually thinking it might take less time to re-write the code less cleverly than to review it
12:36 < GyrosGeier> especially as good compilers can do that for you
12:38 < ron> does the cleverness actually buy you anything where it's being used?
12:38 < Manoj> GyrosGeier: yeah, I am not convinced clever programming actually makes code faster
12:39 < Manoj> it might save you a register (since they overload variables)
12:39 < tomri> clever programming?
12:39 < tomri> you mean optimizing
12:40 < ron> is this time critical on a regular basis?  that seems a bit thin ...
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12:41 < Manoj> tomri: no, I do not mean optimizing. I mean showing everyone how clever you are because your code is so hard to read, and uses so few lines
12:41 < Manoj> ron: It is meant as a speed advantage over current code
12:42 < Manoj> I think 90% of the speed gains over my initial code can be gotten by the non-clever part of the patch, anyway
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12:43 < Sesse> I've found that a lot of code I find "overly clever" is mainly due to use of idioms I'm not familiar with
12:43 < ron> I mean does it offer that advantage to all running processes in some inner loop they all hit, or just some that are run occasionally ...
12:44 < ron> if it means selinux only slows my system 1% instead of 10%, that's notable...  but if it shaves some ms off something that runs once in a blue moon, who cares?  go for readable and auditable
12:45 < Manoj> ron: this is mostly for init running scripts in a proper security domain, or a sysadmin running scripts in a domain not as sysadmin
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12:46 < Manoj> Sesse: use of obscure language characteristics or of arcane or otherwise complex constructs might show people how clever you are, but makes the code harder to review and maintain
12:47 < Sesse> Manoj: you missed my point
12:47 < Sesse> one man's "obscure language characteristics" is another man's second nature
12:49 < Manoj> Sesse: you missed mine. No, it is not always
12:50 < Sesse> I never said always
12:50 < Manoj> Sesse: not all parts of a language are equally clear, and the clarity is not always a point of view
12:50 < Manoj> So, I can, and have, made the statement that some bits of code are indeed "clever" programming
12:51 < Manoj> I mean, I have been coding C since about '88, so I am vaguely familiar with plain old C, to an extent.
12:52 < ron> so on the 'complex' code unit circle that would be something like 0.1perl + 0.9python ?
12:53 < Manoj> anyway. Ill leave tis one bit over till the next upload, and upload the rest of the bug fixes now
12:53 < Manoj> ron: consider writing with use of pack and the schwartzian transform
12:53 < Sesse> ron: which one is the real and which one is the imaginary part?
12:54 < ron> Sesse: that isn't self-evident? :)
12:55 < ron> clever is always imaginary
12:55 < Manoj> Hmm. I can see why lintian misses: update-rc.d ${package_name} defaults >/dev/null
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12:57  * paravoid loves dpkg.log
12:57 < ron> real is always simple, but difficult to get back to once you are deep in imaginary factors
12:57 < Sesse> ron: yes, but which one of perl and python is simple and clever?
12:57 < Sesse> I see a lot more "clever" python code than I ever did perl, contrary to common opinion
12:58 < ron> oh good.  it was self-evident then :)
12:58 < Sesse> still not
12:59 < ron> I see a lot more real-world people solving daily problems in perl too
12:59 < ron> and a fair share of py-in-the-sky ...
12:59 < Sesse> actually I must refine my statement
12:59 < ron> there are exceptions in both cases though of course
12:59 < Sesse> I see ugly perl, but the ugliness is more often constrained very locally
12:59 < Manoj> err, I thought you can't _have_ clever python code
12:59 < Sesse> Manoj: yes you can
13:00 < Sesse> Manoj: it just gets "clever" on a much larger scale
13:00 < tomri> no you cant
13:00 < Manoj> I mean, there is only one way to do it, right?
13:00 < Sesse> Manoj: hhahaha.
13:00 < tomri> you can have _clever_ perl code
13:00 < Manoj> tomri: sure you can.
13:00 < Manoj> tomri: but apart from the one liners, do you really see that very often?
13:01 < tomri> in perl6 you do
13:01  * paravoid also loves snapshot.debian.net
13:01 < Sesse> ron: now look what you started. :-P
13:01 < Manoj> tomri: that is a mostly unfinished language, only written in by language wonks. of course they are being clever -- that is the point, at this stage
13:02 < Sesse> Manoj: just to show that there is more than one way to do it in python
13:02 < Sesse> >>> str.join(":", ["a", "b", "c"])
13:02 < Sesse> 'a:b:c'
13:02 < Sesse> >>> ":".join(["a", "b", "c"])
13:02 < Sesse> 'a:b:c'
13:03 < ron> If I'd walked into this late I'd think Manoj may be talking about boost ...
13:03 < ron> oh wait, they do python too ;
13:03 < paravoid> Sesse: I _hate_ that
13:03 < paravoid> the second form that is
13:04 < paravoid> I find it insane
13:04 < paravoid> (I'm saying that to a lot of people)
13:04 < paravoid> join is an operation performed on a array and needs a delimiter as an "argument"
13:05 < paravoid> I wonder what crack were the py developers smoking at that time
13:05 < Manoj> paravoid: that bit actually is an accepted idiom ... in ruby
13:06 < Manoj> thi pbuilder satisfydeps script actually works pretty darn well.
13:06 < paravoid> Manoj: it's like that in ruby too?
13:06 < paravoid> gah
13:06 < Sesse> paravoid: yes, it's crackful. I dunno why they can't have methods on lists.
13:06 < Manoj> paravoid: ruby is luke perl, except like totally Oo
13:06 < paravoid> yes, I've heard that much
13:06 < Sesse> and like 1/10th of the modules, and dog slow
13:07 < Sesse> and you have all the rails zealots
13:07 < Sesse> apart from that it's a nice language
13:07 < paravoid> ruby> str = ary.join(":")
13:07 < paravoid> love that.
13:07 < Manoj> Sesse: I have so far only done stuff in it where time was not of the essence; but RoR does take away most of the typing I would normally need to do
13:07 < paravoid> I've been meaning to try to learn ruby for quite some time
13:07 < Manoj> it is great for prototyping
13:08 < Sesse> perhaps. DHH smokes way too much crack for me, though.
13:08 < Sesse> but I'm not going into a discussion about RoR now, there's enough language wars here as it is :-)
13:10 < paravoid> gaaaah, my tex setup is broken
13:11 < paravoid> and I don't know why
13:12 < Manoj> yay! $rtEd players guide is now available
13:12 < Manoj> $105 as a boxed set, though
13:12 < Manoj> err, 4th Ed., I mean
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13:33 < Manoj> *sigh*. No matter how much I want to procastinate, I suppose I should work on kernel-package again
13:34 < Manoj> Now that setools RC bug is fixed, k-p is the one in worst shape
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13:53 < Manoj> so I should really really not update anything with priority Required to a new upstream version now, right?
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14:15 < twb> A package I'm adopting calls update-alternatives unconditionally in postinst; surely that can't be right?
14:16 < twb> I'm trying to find somewhere in policy or manpages where it tells me what values of $1 SHOULD get update-alternatives calls.
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14:20 < Manoj> ha. Thread on -user on how much memory your first computer had
14:20  * KiBi would read u-a's manual.
14:20 < Manoj> Mine had a whopping 1KB of ram, and no hared drive
14:20 < KiBi> And then have a look at the part of policy which lists what happens in maintainer's scripts.
14:21 < Manoj> so program and data had to fit in 1024bytes
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14:21 < twb> HDDs are evil anyway
14:21 < twb> KiBi: ok, I'll have another look.
14:21 < KiBi> Like 6.6
14:28 < twb> KiBi: it's still not clear to me.  I'm glancing at another package, scheme48, which installs alternatives for postinst configure and removes for prerm remove|upgrade|deconfigure.  But I don't trust that package to be right.
14:28 < twb> u-a(8) seems mainly to document the sysadmin's use cases, rather than the maintainer's.
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18:46 < xerakko> anybody could send me the two last days logs?